From here:
A seven-year-old has donated $140 to the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center and the Human Rights Campaign Foundation (HRC) because he doesn’t think it’s right for gay people not to be treated equally.
The child, called Malcolm, was given $140 by his parents to donate to the charity of his choice. He chose to split the money between the gay centre and the HRC.The cheque was accompanied by a hand written note that read: “I am sending you this money because I don’t think it’s fair that Gay people are not treated equally,” Malcom writes on the check [sic].”
When I was seven, the concept of homosexuality was something to which I was completely oblivious: had someone attempted to explain it to me, I would not have believed them on the grounds that it is both emotionally and mechanically too improbable.
Not so for today’s seven-year old; no doubt some see that as progress.
Obviously this seven-year-old did not do this on his own, but under some adult influence. It is all part of the completely evil agenda of some, of sexualizing our children. They might as well just join the lineup for the fitting of millstones.
The idea that promoting or facilitating homosexual activity (and other kinds of deviant sex) is a kind and nice and helpful and liberal and caring thing to do is an idea which you might not expect a 7-year old to be able to see the stupidity and dangerousness of; unfortunately, many adults see it this way too (as John K says); which re-inforces the argument you sometimes see to the effect that modern “culture” promotes infantilism among everyone. For where were the parents? Did they not point out the damage that such promotion inevitably does? Yes, I blame the parents.
A 7 year old can see that gays being treated as less than equals is not fair, why can’t you?
Anyone who cares to look with any measure of objectivity can see that homosexual behaviour is:
not normal
not natural and
not healthy.
It is fact one of the most dangerous activities anyone can engage in. The rates of disease (including fatal ones), and death (including suicide), and related substantially reduced average life expactancies, are incredably worse than national averages.
The question is not one about treating people afflicted with the homosexual dissorder as less than equal, but one of how do we provide them with effective treatments that will enable them to overcome their sexual dissorder.
Would you mind to tell me who are you to say that?
Everybody should know that the homosexual behaviour is:
NORMAL
NATURAL (even between the animals)
and it is as HEALTHY as a straight behaviour.
And I’m not telling you that. But, the scientist comunity say that…
If you had read a little bit more you could know that…
The problem is that somepeople just assume that sexual the homosexuality is a dissorder. But never knew the whole psicologists assume that it’s normal and it’s not a dissorder. You could Use the ‘google’ and you’ll find out that…
Even a kid can see the truth, why can’t you see it?
Why can’t you see the “hypocrisy of some religions” that say to love the people. But, say to hate the gay people. Whose say that is not natural but they have no factual reasons…
“A 7 year old boy can see that gays being treated as less than equals is not fair, why can’t you?”²
The world needs more people like that boy. The world needs more people like that parents.
And also, I should say, that donation really was a progress that we are needing now…
Jay,
As you are probably aware, the female black widow spider eats her mate after copulation. This is natural – or, as you would say, NATURAL – for the spider.
Since you use animal behaviour as a paradigm for human behaviour, I presume you have little objection to a similar performance in humans? If not, I’d like to know why not?
You appear to be one of the few people on the planet who is unaware of HIV. If you look here, or here you will notice that a homosexual lifestyle is decidedly unhealthy.
Incidentally, when I was seven, I could spell a lot better than you; if you read a little more, your spelling might improve. I’m not optimistic, though.
David,
Firstly, I’d like to say sorry about my english. I’m a brazilian, I speak portuguese, but I can also write some things in english.
So, I said it’s NATURAL being gay and also some animals are homossexual too. In fact, I’m not saying we are ‘animals’. I just said that being homossexual is NATURAl as we can see in nature.
Of course is natural for a female spider eats her mate after copulation… Of course is natural for some male lions having sex with another male lion… And, of course is natural for us, humans, being gay or straight…
The question is… how do we know what is natural or not?
We humans are always looking for answers arounds us…
For long years… Ours scientists have been studying that issues….
And nowadays the psychologists assume that being homossexual is as natural as being straigh…
Nowadays we know that 5%-10% of the whole people in this planet is gay…
They are gay not because they choose that. They are gay because they born like that… There’s no option for those people…
Finally, I just said it’s not fair treating gay people like mental desorders. Coz’ they are not. I just said that boy made something really kind and important to this world… This world needs something like that, and I mean everyday…
The gay people needs to be treating like they diserve: coz’ they are just people like you or me. They are different just because they choose no more hide what they really are inside… that’s all.
Also, you were talking about HIV, right? So you are saying that straight people do not get AIDS, right? There’s something wrong with it… It’s fact that if you don’t use condoms and have sex to whatever guy/girl you’ll get HIV someday…
By the way, It’s also different being homossexual and being a protitute. So, if you behavior as prostitute and you don’t care about yourself someday you’ll get HIV. And It doesn’t matter if you are gay or straight…
But, it’s a fact (sorry about this words) that is easier to get HIV from a anus than from a vagina… So, that’s why a male gay could get HIV easier than a straight guy (if you know what I mean)… But then, We should talk about condoms again and how it could save people from diseases…
Finally we should agree that behaviour as protitute is a big problem, meanly to gay people…
oh, I almost forgot… When I was seven years old I could understand what was wrong or right like that boy. And also I could spell better than most of kids (on my native language)
I feel like there are so many areas that I want to question in that whole statement(which includes the above, teaching fairness and equality as a means of “sexualizing our children”), but I’m more so curious about the “substantially reduced average life expectancy” bit.
As for the death rate, have you ever noticed that the majority of gay suicides are due to bullying in one form or another. People are being tormented everyday and told that they’re not normal and that what they’re doing is wrong. Being gay isn’t to blame for those deaths and suicides, society is!
Being gay or lesbian is neither a dissorder, nor a disease. It’s sexual orientation(not preference). It’s not up to you, or anyone else to decide what effective treatments are needed to “cure” it because there is no cure. It is as simple are the person to the left of me having blue eyes, or the person to the right of me having dark skin.
If homosexuality is as you say an “orientation” and not a preference or might we say “choice”, than please explain the countless number of former homosexuals that now lead happy, healthy, normal lives as heterosexuals.
They’re called phases. People go through them. I went through one once…I used to like the colour burgundy, now I dont.
Do you really think that the human body is that basic that all it takes is to have sex with someone and you are now a completely different person? No its not, we are complex creatures with complex desires. If you could just remove sex from the factor then you would see all there is is love. We fall in love and we cant help with who. Love cannot be removed or altered by anything or anyone.
Jay,
Sorry, I had assumed English was your first language; your English is considerably better than my Portuguese.
You say that humans are not mere animals; do you think, then, that mankind possesses something transcendent that an animal does not – a soul? If so, perhaps we are subject to other constraints than just doing what comes “naturally”.
The point about HIV was that its incidence is far higher amongst homosexual men, so being an actively homosexual man is not a healthy way to live – condoms or not.
I agree that gay people should be treated decently and with respect – just as we treat anyone else. That doesn’t mean, though, that we have to acknowledge homosexual activity as just a lifestyle choice with no moral component.
As we all know HIV/AIDS is spread by unchristian behaviour. If someone were to steadfastly live a Christian life, which includes celebacy when one is not married, and monogamy when one is married, than AIDS/HIV and ALL OTHER SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DESEASES would be wiped clean from the face of the earth within one generation. But instead so many people put their “faith” in science, and to what avail? Scientists have been conduction research into AIDS/HIV for over 25 years now at the cost of countless millions (perhaps even billions) of dollars, and we still do not have cure. Are these the same people who like to listen to so called scientists telling them that homosexual behaviour is ok?
Just as we have designer drugs AIDS/HIV can be thought of as a designer desease for Satan. Facts are simply these:
You get infected by committing sin
You live long enough to pass it onto others who also commit sin
There is no cure (not even in sight), and finally
You get infected and you will die!
I do not believe that God sent HIV/AIDS into this world, and even doubt that Satan sent it. How many people blame God? Why does God not do something about it? These people who blame God are the same people who refuse to accept what God has taught. Celebacy when not married, monogamy when married. Through this Christain life God has given us the power to destroy HIV/AIDS and all sexually transmitted deseases.
What about those people who live the Christian lifestyle, be celibate, marry and be monogamous, and then divorce and re-marry? Or if you don’t believe in divorce as part of your Christian lifestyle, then what if your spouse passes away and you re-marry. As HL more or less explained, there are more ways than simply “committing sins” to contract diseases. Some people are born with it, some people catch it through needles, through vaccines, through blood contact while trying to help someone(mistakes happen).
Besides that, gay/lesbians can live a Christian lifestyle just the same as you. They can be celibate, they can marry, and they can be monogamous. You’re really putting yourself up on a pedestal to think that you’re so different from a gay person.
Good point of view Lee…
The point about HIV was that its incidence is far higher amongst homosexual men, so being an actively PROSTITUTE homosexual man is not a healthy way to live…
But, I believe too that in Christain life God has given us the power to destroy HIV/AIDS and all sexually transmitted deseases.
however, there’s a problem yet. Most of religions do not accept the homossexual people. So, many of them have to choose live their ‘real’ lifes or being like a ‘fake straight’ to being a christian.
That religions don’t have reasons to do that… but it’s happening anyway….
“Celebacy when not married, monogamy when married” that’s a important thing. But, the people do not believe in that anymore… it’s a pity…
You are mistaken that the definition of a fact is something you believe. A fact is something that can be proven. You nor any scientist in the world can prove that “You get infected by committing sin”. If one of your family members contracted aids after getting a vaccination or any other non-sexual way this would crumble your whole view. You would then have to face the fact that life is harsh on all of us and having people to love no matter what their race, gender or sexual orientation is, is what gets us through these hard times.
It’s a fact AIDS it’s not a gay disease. It’s just a terrible disease. That’s all…
And anyone could get infected by that,no matter what your race, gender or sexual orientation
Now for something completely different…
Those who are avowedly homosexualist tend to be quite liberal on a number of fronts, including abortion.
Presuming that homosexuality is natural, that would make it genetic. If we are able to find the homosexualist gene, how would you feel if women had abortions to prevent the birth of a homosexualist child?
I don’t believe it has been proved that homosexuality is genetic. Either way, I am against abortion for this or any other reason.
Don’t be too quick to generalize:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/02/gay-conservatives-bring-trump-and-the-party-to-cpac/71081/
I am against abortion… It’s a terrible muder, but worse coz’ the baby can’t fights back…
A Christian would say, from the Bible.
Not so, unless you consider “real life” permission to give in to your besetting sin. I am living my best “real life” when I am following Jesus and allowing him to help me overcome my besetting sins.
If I may, I think that you (Kate) have touched on one of the basics of the Christian Faith. That being that we are all sinners. Those of us who make an honest effort to live a Christian life confess our sins regularly (ie. during the Confessional Prayer at Sunday Worship) and make an effort to sin no more. Being human this effort to sin no more is often extremely difficult.
The problem with many people (not just homosexuals) is that they are unwilling to confess that what they are doing is sinful. Instead they choose to be offended, and accuse others of being judgemental and intollerant or even bigotted.
Personally I have no problem with bigotry. Perhaps I am a bit to straightforward for most people, for I have no problem with telling people that audultery is a sin and that I will not tolerate it. Also that divorce is permissable under only two circumstances (one of the spouses has committed audulter, or one of the spouses is a heathan {non-Christian} and has left the marraige in which case the Christian may be granted a divorce. It could be argued that Jesus was a bigot, at least when it came to merchants and money changers in the Temple Courtyard. He also seems to not have much interest in “accomodating” people who He identifies as hypocrites.
” The question is… how do we know what is natural or not?”
“A Christian would say, from the Bible.”
Kate,
I’m a Cristian, and I believe in the Bible too…
But the Bible do not condemn the homosexuality…
however, some people say that some sentences in Bible condemn homossexuality…
Those people are wrong. And If you want to, I can prove you that…
“Most of religions do not accept the homossexual people. So, many of them have to choose live their ‘real’ lifes or being like a ‘fake straight’ to being a christian.”
“Not so, unless you consider “real life” permission to give in to your besetting sin. I am living my best “real life” when I am following Jesus and allowing him to help me overcome my besetting sins”
I’m following Jesus. And, Of course gay, people can following Jesus…
But, you are following Jesus and judging people???? There’s something wrong in that.
You might are a ‘saint’ or something like that, aren’t you?…
Anyway, when someone is gay. That one is gay since she/he born. So, hisher real life is being a homossexual. And when you are pretending be someone you aren’t, it is something really wrong and hard to do… Also, being a homossexual it’s not a sin… But, judge people it’s a real sin…
Hello Jay,
I am wondering which bible you are reading when you say “But the Bible do not condemn the homosexuality”. For your benefit I have found the following:
From the Old Testament
Genesis 19:1-27
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Also from the New Testament
Romans 1:26-28 (If you read on to verse 32 you will see “Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”)
1 Corinthians 6:9 (This one specifically states “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.”)
Jude 1:7
And also for those who think that Jesus Christ is silent on the issue there is Matthew 10:11-15 and Matthew 11:20-24. In both passages Jesus states that it will be more bearable for Sodom than for those who reject Him on the day of judgement. By Jesus making a reference to Sodom He confirms that the homosexual behaviour that took place there is still a sin.
The Holy Bible is very clear on the issue of homosexual behaviour. Those who commit this sin and refuse to repent will burn in hell. And before you accuse me of being judgemental you should understand this. Telling someone that there are consequences to their behaviour is not being judgemental. It’s like telling someone who is about to jump of a high cliff that they will die. There is no judging of the person, just a statement of fact.
Hello AMPisAnglican!
First, I should say that english is not my first language, I’m a brasilian. But I’ll try be clear as I can… And I’m using a
Bible translated in lots of languages (like English, Portuguese, Hebraic, Greek, etc) So, I could draw comparisons about
thouse languages and understand what those passages mean… In English, I’m using The King James’ Bible…
Let me start:
*Genesis 19:1-27 (Sodom and Gomorrah)
Those towns didn’t have anything about homossexuality, but they showed “no welcome” and “no mercy” to the strangers (= the angels) … And they had lots of sins..
Thouse sins we can read in:
*Ezekiel 16:48-49
“48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: PRIDE, FULLNESS of bread, and abundance of IDLENESSs was in her and in her daughters, neither did she STRENTHEN THE HAND OF THE POOR AND NEEDY;”
*Matthew 10:12-15
12 And when ye come into a house, salute it,
13 and if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of
your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment than for that
city.
* Jeremiah 23:14
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem a horrible thing: They commit ADULTERY and walk in lies; they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness. They are all of them unto Me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.”
*Zephaniah 2:8-11
8 I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached My people, and magnified themselves against their border.
9 Therefore as I live,” saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah” even the breeding of nettles and salt pits, and a perpetual desolation. The residue of My people shall despoil them, and the remnant of My people shall possess them.”
10 This shall they have for their PRIDE, because they have reproached and magnified themselves against the people of the LORD of hosts.
11 The LORD will be fearsome unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship Him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen.
*Isaiah 1:10-17 resuming: No justice and oppression
Now, Let’s read the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin:
No justice, oppression, commit adultery, walk in lies, show no welcome, pride
As we can see, only the adultery is a sexual sin in this list……
Let’s continues… Some poeple can said: “But the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had rape the angels!”
So,Let’s read this text now:
*Genesis 19:1-11
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom—both young and old, all the people from every quarter—compassed the house around.
5 And they called unto Lot and said unto him, “Where are the men who came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that WE MAY KNOW THEM.”
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him
7 and said, “I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly…
…
10 But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut the door.
11 And they smote the men who were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
”
Now, we can study this part of the text: “WE MAY KNOW THEM”. “know” in the bible, means in most of times “to have sex”….But in that case means: “to rape”. And now we have to understand what was happening in that time…
The People of that era used to “RAPE” the losers of battles to show them supeoriority… And also to show a worse way of humiliation, mortification or shame. If you read the history of those people you can understand that…
And again if you reads the whole text in can understand and have sure that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah show “no welcome” to the strangers, and also we can see again: no justice, oppression, adultery, pride, etc…
So, now we know what was the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sins. And there’s nothing connected about homosexuality.
Again, Let’s read the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin:
No justice, oppression, commit adultery, walk in lies, show no welcome, pride
Another one:
*Leviticus 18:22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.
*Leviticus 20:13
13 “‘If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
Okay… But let’s read some texts more…:
*Exodus 21:12-26
12 “He that smiteth a man so that he die shall be surely put to death.
14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbor to slay him with guile, thou shalt take him from Mine altar, that he may die.
15 “And he that smiteth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.
16 And he that stealeth a man and selleth him, or if he shall be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
26 “And if a man smite the eye of his servant or the eye of his maid, that it perish, he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake.
I thought “to kill” was a sin. Am I right? But the bible said so… I must to do it, right?
But its says the I can kill if someone did something wrong and I can have a Slave but I can’t steal him….
Let’s read something more:
*Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them,
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, so that he die. So shalt thou put evil away from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.
Let me see if can understand that. If I have a rebel son I MUST kill him… that’s what God wants, is it? I personally think the answer is no…
What we read now? That passages are really strange to us. But they are written in the bible… You tell me now: Why do we not accept hat passages anymore???? huh??? Coz’ kill people is wrong? Coz’ kill your own son is wrong?? Coz’ have a slave is also wrong? Coz’ God don’t want that???
But, now, you tell me Why you still believe that homossexuality is a sin??
Coz, your priest said so???
Coz’ you think that being it’s something disgusting??
Coz you is trying to justify your fear and anger about gay people?
Or just because you didn’t know the truth about it??
But, now, you still can say: The Bible is really clear about man sleeping with man! I’ll ask you: Really ??? Does the Bible so clear to you??? Okay! If you said so…
Now, let’s read about “abomination”
*Leviticus 11:1-10
4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat, of those that chew the cud or of those that divide the hoof: the camel, because he cheweth the cud but divideth not the hoof, he is unclean/abomination unto you;
7 and the swine, though he divide the hoof and is cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud, he is abomination to you.
(JAY: Like pork???? You probably like it, huh? How about a little rabbit? It’s an abomination too)
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.
It’s enough. There’s a lot of passages like that. But now, let understand what “abomination” means.
Abomonation from the original term in hebraic: “toevah”. It means “no clean” or “dirty”. But in hebraic when you want say that something is really wrong, you must to say “Zimah” that means something really wrong = a sin. And the bible, in hebraic, “Zimah” are used so many times. But it were never used in that passages we just read… It’s written : “Toevah” or “abomination”…
The first translation of the bible in Hebraic was made in Greek (Septuagist). And now, we can see the word “bdelygma” in place of “toevah” (=abomination). And “bdelygma” means “something unclean in a ritual” Actually, In Leviticus “abomination” means “no clear” in a ritual for a God’ eyes….Sometimes “toevah” are translated like “akatharsia”. And “akatharsia” means “no pure”.But also, if you what that something is really wrong in Greek, you can say: “Anomia”(=against the law or sin), “poneria” (= malefic act) or “asebeia” (= no mercy)
Also, in Ezequiah, we read Sodoma was “toevah” (= no clean). And its sins was: Adultery, sacrifice of children, idolatry and the badness….
Now, you could ask me: Why that things was so “no clean”? The people who that passages was written was trying to be pure to God’s eyes… And in that time (that era) people used to idolatry theirs own gods… That culture was “no clean” to God, That culture was wrong… So, to be pure, those people should obey that laws. But, nowadays, we do not idolatry different gods.
And we don’t need to KILL people to be a pure group… We don’t accept slaves anymore….We no longer obey most of that laws anymore. Coz’ they are wrong and they are mistaken…
Now, let read again that “homosexual” passage:
*Leviticus 20:13
13 “‘If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination(no clean). They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
Why that things was an abomination (no clean)? I’ll tell you why… Coz’ people was doning ‘Idolatries’.Idololatry in that time, people used to have sex with mens and womens for the hapinness of their gods… So, what the “abomination” means here?
I’ll answer you: the RITUAL of IDOLATRY with SEX WITH MENS AND ALSO WOMENS… That was something so wrong that those people should died.
We also, can think what was “clean” or “no clean” to those people. It’s still a mistary for us… Coz their way to judge was really hard to us understand that… Let’s see another passage:
*Leviticus 11:13-13
12 And if leprosy break out abroad in the skin and the leprosy cover all the skin of him that hath the plague from his head even to his foot, wheresoever the priest looketh,
13 then the priest shall consider; and behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague. It has all turned white; he is clean.
Today, we know leprosy is a skin disease. And no matter if the leprosy have covered all your flesh. You still are sick and you are “no clean” to us coz’ it’s a contagious disease. So the way how those people thought about things “clean” or “no clean” is sometimes a mystery to us… But we know from history facts that the homosexuality is not a sin not because of Leviticus.
However, Idolatry is the real and terrible sin…
Are there in Bible passages which is for homosexuality??? Maybe.
There’re some passages about it too. But I’ll just write about one of them:
*( young’King’ David and Jonathan)
*1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was KNIT WiTH THE SOUL OF David, and Jonathan LOVED HIM as his own soul.
(KNIT WiTH THE SOUL in the bible means: have sex. From HEbraic “Sha’uwl” means the “soul’s desire”. Just like the passage in Genesis when Adam KNIT WiTH THE SOUL of Eve and they had children to made a crownd world)
*1 Samuel 20:41
[…] David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground and bowed himself three times; and they KISSED one another and wept one with another, but David more.
Well, It’s a KISS. Should I say something more about it??? No! It’s enough… It’s “self-explicated”
But, in the translation of King James in 1611, the words “they KISSED one another” just vanished… What??? That’s it!
They disappeared… Maybe, because the King James was afraid to read in the Bible that two were kissing… Who knows….
However, if you still have doubts… Let’s read what happened after Jonathan die in battlefield:
*2 Samuel 1:26
I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant hast thou been unto me. THY LOVE to me was WONDERFUL, PASSING
THE LOVE OF WOMEN.
WHat???? Passing the love of women? huh? Now, Let’s see a little bit of history. In that time, a friendship about men and women were not allowed. COz’ the woman was, in that time, just a private THING. DO you understand me? I say just a THING. So friedship between a man and a woman there wasn’t in that time…. So, I’ll ask you Why do David would compare love beteen man and women???? Coz’ he really loved Jonathan (that’s my answer… now take your own aswer…)
Most of those conclusions I written above were collected by the Priest Daniel A. Helminiak in his book: What he bible really says about homossexuality. Also, I did my own conclusions using a multi-language Bible “BOLMA”. This Bible is translated in lots of languages (like English, Portuguese, Hebraic, Greek, Frensh, Italian, Sweedish, Danish, Spanish etc). Of course I don’t speak that whole languages, but I used a “method” called “strongs”. That’s “strongs” is a little dictionary Hebraic-portuguese inside of that bible. Of course, it wasn’t easy, but I checked by my own the meaning of that words….
Finally,
AMPisAnglican, now I’ll tell you that Telling someone that there are consequences about judge when you don’t know the truth. And I’m telling you that you are commiting the same sin of Sodom and Gomorrah: to say “no welcome” to gay people and saying that they are sinners and comdemning them to hell. But they aren’t sinners…. Before I told you this, you didn’t know that was wrong: do not help gay people… But, now you know…”And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” John 8:32
Just think about it, okay?
Jay
If you speak portuguese and want to see a whole text about this issue. Download it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?nhwhn1f5db1p25q
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“There’s none so blind as those who will not see”
Hello AMPisAnglican!
First, I should say that english is not my first language, I’m a brasilian. But I’ll try be clear as I can… And I’m using a
Bible translated in lots of languages (like English, Portuguese, Hebraic, Greek, etc) So, I could draw comparisons about
those languages and understand what those passages mean… In English, I’m using The King James’ Bible…
Let me start:
*Genesis 19:1-27 (Sodom and Gomorrah)
Those towns didn’t have anything about homossexuality, but they showed “no welcome” and “no mercy” to the strangers (= the
angels) … And they had lots of sins..
Thouse sins we can read in:
*Ezekiel 16:48-49
“48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy
daughters.
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: PRIDE, FULLNESS of bread, and abundance of IDLENESSs was in her and in
her daughters, neither did she STRENTHEN THE HAND OF THE POOR AND NEEDY;”
*Matthew 10:12-15
12 And when ye come into a house, salute it,
13 and if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of
your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment than for that
city.
* Jeremiah 23:14
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem a horrible thing: They commit ADULTERY and walk in lies; they strengthen
also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness. They are all of them unto Me as Sodom, and the
inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.”
*Zephaniah 2:8-11
8 I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached My people, and
magnified themselves against their border.
9 Therefore as I live,” saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of
Ammon as Gomorrah” even the breeding of nettles and salt pits, and a perpetual desolation. The residue of My people shall
despoil them, and the remnant of My people shall possess them.”
10 This shall they have for their PRIDE, because they have reproached and magnified themselves against the people of the
LORD of hosts.
11 The LORD will be fearsome unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship Him, every one
from his place, even all the isles of the heathen.
*Isaiah 1:10-17 resuming: No justice and oppression
Now, Let’s read the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin:
No justice, oppression, commit adultery, walk in lies, show no welcome, pride
As we can see, only the adultery is a sexual sin in this list……
Let’s continues… Some poeple can said: “But the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had rape the angels!”
So,Let’s read this text now:
*Genesis 19:1-11
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom—both young and old, all the people from every quarter
—compassed the house around.
5 And they called unto Lot and said unto him, “Where are the men who came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us,
that WE MAY KNOW THEM.”
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him
7 and said, “I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly…
…
10 But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut the door.
11 And they smote the men who were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied
themselves to find the door.
”
Now, we can study this part of the text: “WE MAY KNOW THEM”. “know” in the bible, means in most of times “to have sex”….But
in that case means: “to rape”. And now we have to understand what was happening in that time…
The People of that era used to “RAPE” the losers of battles to show them supeoriority… And also to show a worse way of
humiliation, mortification or shame. If you read the history of those people you can understand that…
And again if you reads the whole text in can understand and have sure that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah show “no welcome”
to the strangers, and also we can see again: no justice, oppression, adultery, pride, etc…
So, now we know what was the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sins. And there’s nothing connected about homosexuality.
Again, Let’s read the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin:
No justice, oppression, commit adultery, walk in lies, show no welcome, pride
Another one:
*Leviticus 18:22
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.
*Leviticus 20:13
13 “‘If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely
be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
Okay… But let’s read some texts more…:
*Exodus 21:12-26
12 “He that smiteth a man so that he die shall be surely put to death.
14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbor to slay him with guile, thou shalt take him from Mine altar, that he
may die.
15 “And he that smiteth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.
16 And he that stealeth a man and selleth him, or if he shall be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
26 “And if a man smite the eye of his servant or the eye of his maid, that it perish, he shall let him go free for his eye’s
sake.
I thought “to kill” was a sin. Am I right? But the bible said so… I must to do it, right?
But its says the I can kill if someone did something wrong and I can have a Slave but I can’t steal him….
Let’s read something more:
*Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and
who, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them,
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, so that he die. So shalt thou put evil away from among you, and
all Israel shall hear and fear.
Let me see if can understand that. If I have a rebel son I MUST kill him… that’s what God wants, is it? I personally think
the answer is no…
What we read now? That passages are really strange to us. But they are written in the bible… You tell me now: Why do we not
accept hat passages anymore???? huh??? Coz’ kill people is wrong? Coz’ kill your own son is wrong?? Coz’ have a slave is also
wrong? Coz’ God don’t want that???
But, now, you tell me Why you still believe that homossexuality is a sin??
Coz, your priest said so???
Coz’ you think that being it’s something disgusting??
Coz you is trying to justify your fear and anger about gay people?
Or just because you didn’t know the truth about it??
But, now, you still can say: The Bible is really clear about man sleeping with man! I’ll ask you: Really ??? Does the Bible
so clear to you??? Okay! If you said so…
Now, let’s read about “abomination”
*Leviticus 11:1-10
4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat, of those that chew the cud or of those that divide the hoof: the camel, because he
cheweth the cud but divideth not the hoof, he is unclean/abomination unto you;
7 and the swine, though he divide the hoof and is cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud, he is abomination to you.
(JAY: Like pork???? You probably like it, huh? How about a little rabbit? It’s an abomination too)
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters and of any living
thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.
It’s enough. There’s a lot of passages like that. But now, let understand what “abomination” means.
Abomonation from the original term in hebraic: “toevah”. It means “no clean” or “dirty”. But in hebraic when you want say
that something is really wrong, you must to say “Zimah” that means something really wrong = a sin. And the bible, in hebraic,
“Zimah” are used so many times. But it were never used in that passages we just read… It’s written : “Toevah” or
“abomination”…
The first translation of the bible in Hebraic was made in Greek (Septuagist). And now, we can see the word “bdelygma” in
place of “toevah” (=abomination). And “bdelygma” means “something unclean in a ritual” Actually, In Leviticus “abomination”
means “no clear” in a ritual for a God’ eyes….Sometimes “toevah” are translated like “akatharsia”. And “akatharsia” means
“no pure”.But also, if you what that something is really wrong in Greek, you can say: “Anomia”(=against the law or sin),
“poneria” (= malefic act) or “asebeia” (= no mercy)
Also, in Ezequiah, we read Sodoma was “toevah” (= no clean). And its sins was: Adultery, sacrifice of children, idolatry and
the badness….
Now, you could ask me: Why that things was so “no clean”? The people who that passages was written was trying to be pure to
God’s eyes… And in that time (that era) people used to idolatry theirs own gods… That culture was “no clean” to God, That
culture was wrong… So, to be pure, those people should obey that laws. But, nowadays, we do not idolatry different gods.
And we don’t need to KILL people to be a pure group… We don’t accept slaves anymore….We no longer obey most of that laws
anymore. Coz’ they are wrong and they are mistaken…
Now, let read again that “homosexual” passage:
*Leviticus 20:13
13 “‘If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination(no clean). They
shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
Why that things was an abomination (no clean)? I’ll tell you why… Coz’ people was doning ‘Idolatries’.Idololatry in that
time, people used to have sex with mens and womens for the hapinness of their gods… So, what the “abomination” means here?
I’ll answer you: the RITUAL of IDOLATRY with SEX WITH MENS AND ALSO WOMENS… That was something so wrong that those people
should died.
We also, can think what was “clean” or “no clean” to those people. It’s still a mistary for us… Coz their way to judge was
really hard to us understand that… Let’s see another passage:
*Leviticus 11:13-13
12 And if leprosy break out abroad in the skin and the leprosy cover all the skin of him that hath the plague from his head
even to his foot, wheresoever the priest looketh,
13 then the priest shall consider; and behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that
hath the plague. It has all turned white; he is clean.
Today, we know leprosy is a skin disease. And no matter if the leprosy have covered all your flesh. You still are sick and
you are “no clean” to us coz’ it’s a contagious disease. So the way how those people thought about things “clean” or “no
clean” is sometimes a mystery to us… But we know from history facts that the homosexuality is not a sin not because of
Leviticus.
However, Idolatry is the real and terrible sin…
Are there in Bible passages which is for homosexuality??? Maybe.
There’re some passages about it too. But I’ll just write about one of them:
*( young’King’ David and Jonathan)
*1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was KNIT WiTH THE SOUL OF
David, and Jonathan LOVED HIM as his own soul.
(KNIT WiTH THE SOUL in the bible means: have sex. From HEbraic “Sha’uwl” means the “soul’s desire”. Just like the passage in
Genesis when Adam KNIT WiTH THE SOUL of Eve and they had children to made a crownd world)
*1 Samuel 20:41
[…] David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground and bowed himself three times; and they
KISSED one another and wept one with another, but David more.
Well, It’s a KISS. Should I say something more about it??? No! It’s enough… It’s “self-explicated”
But, in the translation of King James in 1611, the words “they KISSED one another” just vanished… What??? That’s it!
They disappeared… Maybe, because the King James was afraid to read in the Bible that two were kissing… Who knows….
However, if you still have doubts… Let’s read what happened after Jonathan die in battlefield:
*2 Samuel 1:26
I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant hast thou been unto me. THY LOVE to me was WONDERFUL, PASSING
THE LOVE OF WOMEN.
WHat???? Passing the love of women? huh? Now, Let’s see a little bit of history. In that time, a friendship about men and
women were not allowed. COz’ the woman was, in that time, just a private THING. DO you understand me? I say just a THING. So
friedship between a man and a woman there wasn’t in that time…. So, I’ll ask you Why do David would compare love beteen man
and women???? Coz’ he really loved Jonathan (that’s my answer… now take your own aswer…)
Most of those conclusions I written above were collected by the Priest Daniel A. Helminiak in his book: What he bible really
says about homossexuality. Also, I did my own conclusions using a multi-language Bible “BOLMA”. This Bible is translated in
lots of languages (like English, Portuguese, Hebraic, Greek, Frensh, Italian, Sweedish, Danish, Spanish etc). Of course I
don’t speak that whole languages, but I used a “method” called “strongs”. That’s “strongs” is a little dictionary Hebraic-
portuguese inside of that bible. Of course, it wasn’t easy, but I checked by my own the meaning of that words….
Finally,
AMPisAnglican, now I’ll tell you that Telling someone that there are consequences about judge when you don’t know the truth.
And I’m telling you that you are commiting the same sin of Sodom and Gomorrah: to say “no welcome” to gay people and saying
that they are sinners and comdemning them to hell. But they aren’t sinners…. Before I told you this, you didn’t know that
was wrong: do not help gay people… But, now you know…”And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”
John 8:32
Just think about it, okay?
Jay
Of course, same sex attracted people can follow Jesus. They still have to follow His rules, though.
We are all born into sin – but we aren’t supposed to let it define us.
“Of course, same sex attracted people can follow Jesus. They still have to follow His rules, though.”
And of course, the homossexuality is not a sin…
Those punishments were the civil law of Israel – God’s law and the civil law were one and the same thing then. They are no longer binding on Christians for that reason. The moral laws still are binding on Christians.
Being homosexual is not a sin; acting out on same sex attraction is. In your comment, you have started with the conclusion you want to reach, and worked backwards. What we need to do when we read the Bible is allow it to form us, not the other way around.
In other words, the Bible records the civil laws and civil punishments of ancient Israel. As we don’t live in ancient Israel, they don’t apply to us.
Sorry, maybe my English didn’t helped me to express my opinion…
My conclusion is: homosexual is NOT A SIN; neither acting out on same sex attraction, coz’ the writers of the bible didn’t care about it.
But, the Bible is against the ritual of idolatry, idultery, and “no mercy” ( like to say “no welcome”)
Also, Jesus never talked about the homossexuality. And now I’ll ask you: Why?? Why Jesus forgot to talk about something so wrong which sends you directly to hell??
Coz’ it wasn’t His priorities. Coz’ it wasn’t important. Coz’ it wasn’t a sin: neither being homossexual nor behavior like that or act like that…
But Jesus talked about the fogiveness, goodness, to help the needy, and to obey God….
But now, you can still say: Jesus talked about Sodom and Gomorrah’s sins. Right!! I Agree with you!
Howerver, I also explained that those towns didn’t have anything about homossexuality…
Let’s read the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sins, again:
No justice, oppression, adultery, walk in lies, show “no welcome”, pride, sacrifice of children, idolatry.
Jay, I would be interested in seeing your translation of the Bible from which you make your statements.
We accept that what the Apostles taught was by directly received from Christ.
As for Sodom, it became the legal definition to describe gay sex.
You must have an Episcopal Bible, the one that ignores repentance and striving for a pure life as much as we sinners can hope for. Their motto should be let it all hang out (old 70’s expression)
Steve,
Firstly, I’m using mainly the 21st Century King James Version 1995 and also I’m using the New King James Version… Coz’ I know that Bible have a great importance to the historical English language…
So, let’s Start:
I’ve alread talked about Genesis 19:4-5.
But I’ll repeat it to you
Now, we should study this part of the text: “can have intercourse with them’. That words mean, in the bible, most of times, “to have sex”…. But in that case it also means: “to rape”. And now we have to understand what was happening in that time…
The people of that era used to “RAPE” the losers of battles to show them supeoriority… And also to show a worse way of humiliation, mortification or shame. If you read the history of those people you can understand that…
And again if you reads the whole text in can understand and have sure that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah show “no welcome” to the strangers, and also we can see again: no justice, oppression, adultery, pride, etc…
So, now we know what was the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sins. And there’s nothing connected about homosexuality.
Let’s read the Sodom and Gomorrah’s sins, again:
No justice, oppression, adultery, walk in lies, show “no welcome”, pride, sacrifice of children, idolatry.
You can find them here:
Ezekiel 16:48-49
Matthew 10:12-15
Jeremiah 23:14
Zephaniah 2:8-11
Isaiah 1:10-17
As we can see, only the adultery is a sexual sin in this list……
Now Let’s talk about some new passage:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice HOMOSEXUALITY…
(The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts)
Those words that you mentioned were: “malakoi” and “arsenokoitai” in Greek language…
But, first you should know that word “homosexuality” didn’t exist in that time. So, that translation you showed us is a little bit mistaken…
The real words were: “malakoi” and “arsenokoitai” in Greek language…
But, those words mean: “young male prostitute” and “the man who have sex with the young male prostitute”.
So, you really can say that the two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the PASSIVE and ACTIVE men partners. I agree with you…
But, now, you should know about historical facts…
In that time, the Greek people was doing ‘Idolatries’. Idololatry in that time, people used to have sex with mens and womens for the hapinness of their gods…
So, this passage talks about the RITUAL of IDOLATRY about HAVE with SEX WITH MENS. That was the sin…
If St. Paul would like to condemn the homosexuals. He could use the word “pederasty” or παιδεραστία from Greek language. That word were used to express a relationship between two men (= like the concept of homosexuality as we understand nowadays / = the love between two men)
Now, you pay attention in the emphasis of this group of words:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do not be deceived: neither the SEXUALLY IMORAL, nor IDOLATERS, nor ADULTERERS, nor “MALAKOI”, nor “ARSENOKATAI”…
Finally, I’ll answer you: The sins in that passage were the RITUAL of IDOLATRY with sex and the MAN PROSTITUTION.
Those interpretations of malakoi and arsenokoitai are recent and generally held by homosexuals who obviously have an axe to grind or liberal scholars who also have an axe to grind – of a different sort.
In order to overturn 2000 years of a particular Biblical interpretation, you need something reasonably solid: what you have is contemporary culture colouring Scripture to suit its own ends.
For a scholarly article that convincingly upholds the traditional understanding of the words – and debunks the liberal one – see here.
I know those interpretations of ‘malakoi’ and ‘arsenokoitai’ are recent. But, they are solid enough…
Also I was talking about the meaning of the words and about historical facts…
It’s simple… You just need to read a little bit more about the Ancient Greek and about ‘pederasty’ in Ancient Greek. That’s all.
Greek was the language of the intellectuals at the time and chosen to correspond in since Hebrew and Aramaic were less popular. Greek sexual habits are a red herring since Greek was the language used to communicate in rather than a basis of social platform.
This discussion is going nowhere. We will all be judged one day and I’m not expecting to engage my Creator in a debate I cannot win. Kay and Lee can, but be prepared to take a lot of heat for your position, for a long-long time.
If that were the case the majority of evangelical scholars would agree with your position, but they don’t.
The link I provided above discusses homosexuality in Ancient Greece: read it.
“If that were the case the majority of evangelical scholars would agree with your position, but they don’t.”
But, also you should know that the majority still have a prejudice against gay people. So, those people just agree what they want. Then, we know the truth is irrelevant, when they just don’t want it…
I forgot,
John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Jesus never talked about the homossexuality. And now I’ll ask you: Why?? Why Jesus forgot to talk about something so wrong which sends you directly to hell??
Coz’ it wasn’t His priorities. Coz’ it wasn’t important. Coz’ it wasn’t a sin: neither being homossexual nor behavior like that or act like that…
All the sins which sends people directly to hell Jesus didn’t forgot to say. Coz’ those sins were really important to being forgotten…
Jesus can’t forget… He’s the sons of God… He knows everything about us. He knows everything about all of things.
Jesus didn’t say anything about pedophillia either… Be careful with that argument, it can backfire really quickly.
But kids can’t make sex. So, whatever, It’s wrong….
And Jesus approved sex between adults…
Also, Jesus didn’t approved the imoral sex… And pedophillia is imoral… But, about the homosexuality. I’ve already showed you: It’s not a sin, neither imoral…
I can’t help but think that it’s a little silly to so avidly follow a book that was for the most part, written thousands of years ago. I think can be great in the sense that it provides some excellent examples of ways to live however that doesn’t mean I’m going to follow each page word for word.
I’d like to think that with all the evolving people have been doing throughout the years, that Jesus would evolve too. I don’t know about all of you, but over the years that the bible has been around, don’t you think that it’s slightly possible that Jesus could have a different point of view from back then? The God/Jesus that I believe would be best, would be one who can accept that maybe even he can make mistakes or even change his mind. That with the changing of times and evolving of humans, and animals, and plants, and home that, maybe, just maybe he can evolve too. That maybe he could have believed one thing back in the day(thousands of years ago) and that maybe his point of views have changed since. I’m not meaning only with homosexuality but I mean with a lot of things. I’d like to think that my god can grow just the same as myself. I deleted your duplicate post – David
Lee, you are a man of the times and, like so many others, follow a religion of your own creation. You pick and choose from the Bible according to personal preference and what seems right to you. Truth is relative and unique to each person. You believe that Jesus would have adapted to the times, yet ignore His words where He said that every word of the Law and Prophets (what we now know as the Old Testament) were true – even though some of them had been written at least 1500 years before Christ’s birth. Why bother with the Bible at all?
Ah today’s religion, your god can be just like you, not the other way around. Don’t worry, You can redefine morality and your god will follow like some lost puppy.
My God however is timeless and doesn’t keep messing with the rules just because someone isn’t up to the task.
I don’t need my god to adjust to what I want just because I’m not up to the task. I just don’t believe he’d be so narrow-minded as to think that it’s his way or the highway.
His Way is The High Way!
Prayers for your conversion to human respect!