From here:
As part of its drive to retain congregation numbers, the Church of England is training its clergy to create a “pagan church” where Christianity will be “very much in the center,” a British newspaper reports.
The mother church of the worldwide Anglican Communion is seeking to create new forms of Anglicanism with which people of alternative beliefs should feel comfortable, according to The Telegraph.
“I would be looking to formulate an exploration of the Christian faith that would be at home in their culture,” the daily quotes the Rev. Steve Hollinghurst, who is advising the denomination in its new endeavor, as telling the BBC.
What the church is looking at is “almost to create a pagan church where Christianity was very much in the centre,” he adds.
I have bad news for Rev. Hollinghurst: the Anglican Church of Canada has been telling people they can believe whatever they like while concealing Christianity in a centre that no-one ever seems to find for decades. The result has been that potential congregants choose a belief that tells them that it is better to stay in bed late on Sunday morning than attend a church that can’t confidently convey a coherent Christian message.
Hollinghurst describes himself as “Researcher in Evangelism to Post-Christian Culture” and asks, “But how can that connection be made when for many it seems to be a tired old religion, a relic of a passing age?”
Um, maybe by working to make this once again a Christian culture?
Strange how those at evangelical and pentacostal churches that are filled with people seem to look upon Christianity as anything but a tired relic.
The picture that keeps coming to my mind when I read articles like this is that of a bunch of people sitting on an inner tube in the middle of the ocean, without a compass, and all paddling in different directions.
David, I believe that perhaps you miss the main point.
I am actually relieved to see this. It is the fist admission from the entire Anglican Communion of what is really going on.
My ‘beef’ with Anglicanism and in particular Hiltz’ brand of Anglicanism is that it is not a Christian church but rather a money centric business; their god is Mammon…
This article constitutes reasonable proof of that [as opposed to a mountain of circumstantial evidence] for the fist time.
The CoE’s charitable status should be revoked immediately and Anglicanism investigated here in Canada.
“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons.” 1 Cor.
The sheep’s clothing is almost totally taken off, the wolf is totally revealed, and the last remnant of the sheep’s clothing will be removed when Christianity is cast out the New Pagan Church. Their work will be done, the destruction will be complete, and Satan will be pleased with his wolves.
The good news? The Church of Christ shall go on and shall be victorious.
“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13
This Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the New Beginning will come. I pray these lost souls shall wake up, and be saved to come along to that New Beginning.
“Nowadays people, they want to feel something; they want to have some sense of experience,” Andrea Campenale, who works with the CMS, was quoted as saying.
Although Andrea may simply be describing the spiritual hunger of our age, this quote worries me. It sounds a bit like a marketing person describing a sales opportunity. The church is not on Earth to make people comfortable, or to scratch a spiritual itch. Although the Holy Spirit may draw seekers in for a variety of reasons, in the end it must be the Church “militant here on Earth” that calls people to a life of service to the most high God.
Michael:
Church CMS; website management; media; advertising, most of which as far as I can see is aimed at the double sided coin of adherents/money has precious little to do with Christianity.
What this Ms. Campenale is talking about is not Spiritual hunger, but more a Spiritual vacuum or void, although I doubt that she would recognize it as such. Your suggestion that, “It sounds a bit like a marketing person describing a sales opportunity” is exactly and precisely what it is. Just the old Anglican exhortation to remember the church in your last will and testament [or we’ll flog the graveyard to the condo developers] dressed up to woo a new generation of cash stuffed envelopes.
The Church Militant upon the earth has always had many particular churches and the future of Christianity will be secured by those that worship the Lord High God and not by those that worship the dollar bill…
Do they contemplate replacing the ten Commandments with the “Ten Suggestions”?
Ah, come on, people! Did none of you google the quotes a little further? Didn’t this sound “too good to be true”? Where is your scepticism?
The real source of this report is a Daily Telegraph article, which has no real quotes to back it up.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10133906/Church-of-England-creating-pagan-church-to-recruit-members.html
The DTel is notoriously bad at reporting anything to do with Christianity. I well remember, during the 80’s, that their religion correspondent did not know anything about evangelicals; not even that they existed. So every article depicted members of the church as either anglo-catholics, or trendy liberals clapping and playing guitars. That in fact the liberals were not the ones with the guitars escaped him; which made all his reports quite worthless.
In this case, what we seem to have, if I read it correctly, is someone thinking about how to evangelise the hippy pseudo-pagan lot. The idea is that the old form of church service is off-putting to that group (true), and that something might be done by working up a form of service, with Jesus at the centre, but where the ways of worship are something they can relate to.
There is no reason why we can’t “plunder the Egyptians” to bring the gospel to them. I fear this whole story is a red herring.
As usual, terrible reporting by the Telegraph. Don’t believe everything You read in the paper, for a time is coming and has now come when people will hear what their itching ears want to hear. We facilitate East Midlands Forest Church and it’s very much Christocentric, even if we celebrate outside. Trouble is with a lot of my brothers and sisters in Christ is that they prefer to sit in their pews listening to sermons rather than enacting them in a culturally relevant way to the world at large!
Here’s Steve Hollinghurst’s own response to the news articles:
http://onearthasinheaven.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/exposing-church-of-england-plan-to.html?m=1
And we don’t proselytize as it’s not biblical.
Thank you for the link Matt. Very informative, and I appreciated being able to read it as it appears the Telegraph article was not written as well as it could have been.
Holinghurst says, ” However, i find the vision Jesus outlined for life, society and the future of creation deeply attractive and my belief as a christian is that God can work to change us into the sort of people who can live that vision out and i want to share that vision with others and i hope they too are attracted to it – that would be what i would mean by evangelism. i also want to live in a society in which all faiths are tolerated and given equal status. i could say more but this has been long enough. i am happy to respond to further questions and comments ”
With which I find absolutely no fault, except that my seven year old uses English grammar better and English is not his first language.
Have you ever thought that your derogatory comments aimed at a fellow human being have a real life person as their target rather than a conputer monitor? You should be ashamed to be honest, and b it does show a lack of reasoned response when one resorts to ad hominem attacks.
Shame on you my friend.
Matt:
when a statement of fact becomes an “ad Hominem” attack we live in a fragile world.
It is all personal “my friend”, that is the essence of this blogsite it is all “ad hominem” and there is usually a real person behind the computer.
So shame on you too [and have a nice day.]
Sorry Malachy, I mistakenly thought you were a follower of Christ. Forgive me for my ignorance.
Peace
Malachy merely pointed out the bad grammar; instead of responding to that question, you attacked him personally and shrieked, like a fascist, the equivalent of “Silence you pig! How dare you say that!!!!”. We’re very familiar with the fascist-left and its determination to silence, rather than debate, if possible by intimidation. How nasty to see it here.
Rather than telling you what he thought of you, Malachy, politely, pointed out your failure of both logic and courtesy. You responded with a religious sneer.
Going by your posts, you’re a very nasty piece of work, “Matt Arnold”; cock-sure and impudent. You’re no believer, that’s for sure. But you’re pretending to be one; and you’re endorsing this initiative, which is unfortunate.
I suggest you run along before you convince everyone that the Telegraph was right in the first place. And you might apologise first to Malachy for treating him like dirt.
Please. I have a hard enough time discerning the hearts of my closests friends. It is impossible to know the state of the heart of someone you only know from blog posts.
I’m sorry if you truly do find it difficult to work out what positions people hold from what they say. Most people manage, you know?
But, really, consider: what is the purpose of words, sentences, and public posts of opinion, except to convey precisely that information?
And if we can’t work out, from what people write, what they mean, then either they (a) can’t write or (b) they are being evasive or (c) we can’t read. It is not exactly a recommendation of anyone’s prose, if you or I are unable to work out from that what principles he holds, is it?
As for whether someone is a Christian or not, I have never discovered any Christian who had difficulty with it. Some non-Christians profess all sorts of difficulties, but usually it turns out that their real difficulty is that they want to apply the Name to themselves, and viciously attack anyone who objects.
But of course it is hardly surprising that it is obvious; as obvious as Labour or Tory. Those who march through life to a different drum will find it hard to stay in step with those who conform. It is, again, something that is always going to be fairly obvious.
Wow, what a nice person you are Plastic. Out of Your mouth pours what is in your heart.
May God bless you as you seek him whilst cursing me. May God remove the salt water that pours from your mouth whilst you attempt to pour forth pure water, that the salt becomes less as the water becomes pure.
May you be blessed in return for your cursing of me.
From this point on I shall not respond to your strange trolling habit.
Well, it’s been quite a long time since I’ve encountered someone who thought that insults were the way to convince me that he was one of the good guys! After all, I was willing to listen until he started biting people. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, this one! 🙂
Note the attempt to change the subject from him to me. It’s just the old troll tactic of projection, of course. I’m sure we’ve all seen that before. Nice to see it again; you always know who you’re dealing with.
And I do love the hypocritical use of the bible to try and intimidate Christians, who mostly respect it (whereas he, clearly, does not). Only one group uses that trick.
I must say I do feel vindicated. When one makes a judgement call, that someone is not what they pretend, one always wonders slightly if one is being too harsh. But lately I seem to nail it every time. 🙂
I did not say knowing someone’s position from what he or she says, I said discerning the heart. Only The Lord knows what is truly in the heart of another (in other words, whether or not someone is a Christian).
If so, the word would become useless, for no-one could ever know to whom it applies.
This is not the usage we find in Christian literature, you know.
Matt [#8],
Thank you for the clarification.
I don’t think you have entirely convinced me that what is being attempted won’t end up “paganising” the church – that is what has happened to some North American Anglican parishes and dioceses.
As a matter of interest, what do you think of the Alpha Course? It seems to work.
You don’t need to be convinced that what we’re doing will not end up paganising the church. It’s not you we’re answerable to in the end.
The facilitators of EMFC work with spiritual advice from CofE, Baptist and Methodist ministers. All are convinced of what we’re doing and that it’s been done in an orderly manner without overstepping the mark.
I think you may be confusing what we’re doing with infiltration of supposed pagan elements into the church. We celebrate Christmas and Easter, all of which have pagan origins, yet are happily accepted by all but the most extreme followers in the Christ path.
We’re not blind to the issues that are involved in maintaining an authentically Christ-like incarnation of church within the setting of a pagan community. 10 years ago I would have been of the same opinion as yourself. Then within the last 4 years I heard the Holy Spirit say “I’m off. Are you coming?” The Spirit blows wherever it will, and it’s up to us to seek out where God’s working, which requires discernment.
The Alpha course – well, it’s a very good course for a particular type of person. Unfortunately, it’s had such a good PR that people use it without really contextualizing it (but then you’re told that you’re not to tinker with it, for it may lose its “Alpha-ness”). So, having spent seven years working as a Christian in the local Mind Body Spirit events as a team member of a group called Journey Into Wholeness – Newark, we found that a lot of people were coming along who had been badly treated by Christians (much like some of the comments on here – and our behaviour in public towards each other is supposed to be showing the world how much we are Christ’s disciples, that we publicly slag each other off??? Don’t think so). The last thing someone wants to do is go to a church setting, learning stuff they already know, when they’ve been subject to hatred because they may appear different / ask awkward questions (I have had this treatment myself in several different churches because I pointed out inconsistencies in what was said with what is clearly stated in the Bible).
As such, Alpha won’t work with those involved in the New Spiritualities as they’re looking for an encounter with the Divine, not simply facts and figures presented in a Heresy-Rationalist type apologetic.
If you don’t agree with what we do, pray for us. If you think we may be onto something, pray for us. Whatever, we value your prayers as we play our part in taking the full Gospel of Christ (good news for restored relationships between humans and the Divine, humans and each other and humans and our environment) into all the tribes and peoples of our own communities. It’s a a great thing to journey alongside someone in their faith path, sharing things we’ve learned along our paths. It’s not proselytizing – which we abhor, it’s following our Master in how he operated.
Be blessed,
Matt
East Midlands Forest Church
http://www.mysticchrist.co.uk/blog/post/East_Midlands_Forest_Church
That’s OK Matt: I figured you out for a condescending horse’s rectum from your first post.
Beware of worshiping Billy Gumbell during lughnasadh; other wise you appear to be on track…
You are in my prayers.
Thanks for your prayers and may God bless you with the ability to figure people out more clearly than at present.
“Christmas and Easter, all of which have pagan origins”?
No, friend, they do not. If anyone tells you otherwise, ask them to produce the primary sources that show that they have “pagan origins”. You will very quickly find that there are none.
Well, an encounter with the Divine is what the Holy Spirit weekend in the Alpha course is supposed to be all about…
Karen, indeed. But you have to go to a number of meetings before that session occurs, and most people who have been damaged by the sorts of aggressive and foul language that’s been spouted on here by people who claim to follow Christ simply see church as full of hypocrisy and hateful people, so will go where they feel accepted, which I have to say is one of the positive aspects of the pagans I meet.
They want heart and soul knowledge, not just head nowadays. But the Church still seems to think you can argue people into the Kingdom without showing them love for who they presently are.
Churches that operate on a believe, then behave before you belong are losing members. Those who operate as bless, belong, then believe, then behave are the ones which will be more effective in this post modern world.
I think, David, that we may have been unjust to the Telegraph, particularly after reading the comments here of this Matt Arnold. I have just spent a little time on the site, and it looks entirely like syncretism to me.
http://www.mysticchrist.co.uk/site/about_us
E.g.: “Down to earth spirituality of the everyday with Christ at its compass prompting action for peace, justice and ecology.”
Nice use of leftist establishment code-words. The author of those words looks to me like a liberal, playing at being a hippy. I would be no more impressed by a military style “Christianity supports the Empire” assertion; Christ did not die and rise again in order to support either left-wing or right-wing causes. To use the name of Christ to advance some other cause is to break the third commandment.
It might be amusing, considering the tendency among the pseudo-pagans to tell imaginative lies about anything they want to believe, to see whether the liberals can manage to out-lie even them. I wouldn’t put money on that either way.
But nothing in any of this indicates the presence of the Gospel, or any personal knowledge of Christ Himself.
We all know that becoming a Christian is not a journey; it is a decision. Until you make that decision to make Christ the Lord of your life, forsaking all others, you have not taken even one step into Zion.
The pretence of “faith as a journey”, where you believe one thing one week and another the next, is classic liberalism. Somehow the “journey” never actually involves getting to Zion.
Plastic,
May God be gracious to those who cross your path. May he anoint the ears of those who hear your words and may he anoint the eyes of those who read your words, that they may be shielded from hatred, insult and attempts to quench the fire of his Spirit in their lives.
May he be merciful to you and open your eyes to the lack of love shown to those who see things differently. May he teach you to walk humbly before him, love justice and show mercy to them.
May the refreshing cool breeze of his Spirit blow through your soul, clearing away the chaff that the wheat may be revealed.
May the Father, Son and Spirit be your strength and protection of your soul as you type at your keyboard responses to your fellow neighbour.
May he cause you to look inside yourself and see any changes that need to be made in your spirit, diminish your pride that you accept his offer of help and then gently restore your relationship with him and your fellow human brothers and sisters.
And the blessing of God be with you as you travel with Christ within, Christ alongside as travelling companion, Christ as the path and the destination, until you complete that journey in him, forever blessed.
Amen
Hello Plastic,
Must say that I felt an certain amount of agreement with your statement about leftist code words. Having personally met people who actually believe that Jesus gives us some sort of a mission of “social justice” I can’t help but feel that His Church has been high-jacked and that the message of God’s calling us to redemption has either been reduced our outright lost.
Thanks. Of course the point is not whether the policies / opinions of the left are *correct*; the point is that the use of that terminology shows that the controlling agenda is not that of Christ.
It all comes down to where your centre is. Is it on Christ; or is it somewhere else in the world. If it is not on Christ, it matters little where else it is.
Those who are naturally religious but not Christian will always be tempted to dress up the temporary urgencies of the time and place in which they happen to live in the language of Zion; and what reason, in truth, do they have not to? Those who are centred on Christ, however, are unlikely to try to mix other things (whether good or not) into the gospel. The latter is simply too important to mess around with.
Of course we all remember the liberation theology of the world council of churches of the 70’s. All those Soviet “bishops”, all being fawned on, all — as we now know — KGB officers with no Christian belief whatever. All that blather was simply a cloak for a political agenda.
Mind you, it might be fun to dig out some of the pious, insincere stuff about “unity” from that period, before those same churchmen started sueing dissenters out of the churches.
Troll troll.
O Lord,
Have mercy on the pagan nations of the world, the sad millions who walk in the darkness of the shadow of the valley of death.
Have pity on abandoned sinners, on the malicious, on outcasts, on Matt Arnold, on the fallen and on the depraved.
Have mercy on the dying and especially on those who have none to pray for them.
Sweet Jesus, pray and beseech Thy Heavenly Father for the conversion of all sinners, and for the perseverance in Thy grace of all the just.
Amen.
Amen Malachy 🙂
Amen. Lord have mercy on us all, sinners.
As an Alpha Regional Director I suppose I should weigh in here with a number of points.
Having read the linked article, I didn’t get the “sky is falling” sense that I might have had by just reading the headline of David’s post. Actually we have churches with Alpha booths in Psychic fairs and New Age expositions. We are coming to the point of asking ourselves, “Where do the people we want to reach hang out?”
When I ran Alpha in a jail, housing a disproportionate Native population, a number of those who most easily came to faith in Christ were those most deeply involved in their own Native spirituality. Once they were introduced to Jesus, they would say, “This is what I’ve been looking for.” Jesus just comleted the picture. He satisfied the hunger they were really seeking to fill.
The key to Alpha is that we allow guests to ask any questions or express any opinion without ridicule, argument or condemnation. If someone wants to join an Alpha team wanting to preach, or to drag people into the Kingdom, we don’t want them.
I could go on, but enough for now.
Thanks for that enlightening and polite response John. I’m very interested in how alpha is used in that context. It sounds like they’re experiencing what we experience when a mutually respectful dialogue is engaged. We have some “dechurched” who have been damaged by the sorts of attitudes and behaviours shown to me on here and don’t want anything to to worth Christianity (and who can blame them when its adherents are so “polite”). So alpha as a commercialised package (as they see it) isn’t appropriate. Showing them that Jesus is very different to his followers, by actions and dialogue is key here (as they know what we believe, having believed it themselves once).
However, for those who are “unchurched”, I am heartened that it is being used effectively and would like to see it in action. Can you give me some contact details of places where they’re using it and the fairs they’re being used in please? I won’t put my contact details here as I’m not fond of hate mail as it is from those intent on raising doctrine above loving people (both should be in equal measure, but that’s not the reality of how it pans out in how people treat each other).
Glad alpha is recognising that people don’t want to come to church, so is going outside its walls to where people are at, and that proselytizing isn’t an ethical or spiritually good thing.
Be blessed John!
OK Matt, you are bruised and bleeding, I get it. That is sometimes what happens when you initiate combat. Nobody here is going to “send you hate mail” so relax; however, you are easy enough to find and appear very prominently upon Forrest Church’s website as an organizer. You might want to take a look at that if victimization is a real concern to you.
Personally, I am sorry for reacting as I did to your post calling me unchristian; I should have known better and turned the other cheek.
On Alpha: my wife and I were part of a team that brought Alpha to the Catholic Diocese of Vancouver in the nineties; Revd. Nicky Gumbell and his wife were front and centre. Many other faith groups were invited by us and attended the conference and I hope they did better with the material than the Catholics did… We subsequently ran several courses, but gave up in the end because of other commitments and the fact that all the RCC wanted to do was run it’s existing adherents through the course. The was no attempt to introduce non-believers to the word. We brought a small number of non-believers to the courses, but typically the Catholics ‘ate them alive’. That was a shame because the whole idea is to provide a safe environment to introduce Christianity.
On Paganism: Paganism has had a ‘bad rap’ for years; mostly undeserved and certainly heavily influenced by Rome. It is simply a different religion [forget the cult or pop versions that orbit all religions] and should be respected as such. In the west of Ireland where I grew up it was hard to tell where Paganism ended and Catholicism began because the two were blended and entwined. [Perhaps that is why the Anglicans tried so hard to proselytize: ever heard of Revd. Edward Nangle of Dugort?] Maybe they have now dis-entwined in the hearts of the people: certainly many have abandoned the Catholic Church because of the abuse issues.
Go in peace and walk with the Lord.
Malachy you’re forgiven.
I never intended to “enter into combat” but was concerned that you “appeared” to me to be being derogatory towards a friend. As a teacher I am aware there are a whole pile of people who may find grammar difficult through no fault of their own. I don’t know if Steve was typing on a hurry on a train of thought, or what. Some people may be dyslexic and that can affect their grammar and spelling. I guess I was jumping to the defence of those who have these issues in general based on my role as a teacher. If I came across more strongly than I thought then I’m sorry. That was never intended.
The “horse’s rectum” made me laugh though. It’s genuinely one of the most creative insults I’ve received and will stay with me for a long time as a “chuckle moment”.
Be blessed!
Matt
You may indeed be right. I never comment on silly typos because I make enough of them myself. I believe that the horse’s rectum is original but I hold no copyright, so enjoy/employ as necessary.
I think that the absolute use of ‘i’ is intentional though; and as a person who found English Grammar difficult enough because pretty much nothing is as it appears or sounds, I hate to see mindless mutations.
Follow a bunch of teenage girls through a Canadian Mall and all you will hear is “Oh my god, it’s like…” ad nauseam. I’m not sure if OMG has made the Oxford Dictionary yet, but I am sure that it will; without and religious context!
Matt – how do you see what you do as different from what these folks do:
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1589#.Uc1_Bcu9KK0
I know, the source is not unbiased, but I couldn’t find the story put in a succinct way anywhere else. As a Christian who used to be a practicing Wiccan, some of your rituals are too close to what the Wiccans do for my personal comfort level.
Kate. .. they’ve crossed the line into bitheism. By separating the feminine aspects of the Divine into a separate goddess, they’ve violated the concept of the Trinity. That’s not an authentically Christian concept so I wouldn’t class it as being biblically sound sadly. The fine line has been left and they’re straying into territory that has no overlap with the Christ path.
I am interested that you say some of our rituals are Craftt-like when I’m not sure how you know, seeing as I’m pretty certain you’ve never read any of my rituals (they’ve not been published online or in a book). Which of my rituals are you referring to when you say that? The only ones I’ve put online Are the Advent rituals which you are welcome to view at the Forest Church website – is out those you are referring to? Yes there’s a candle being lit. Yes there’s a time of silence. Yes there’s a prayer for protection called a caim prayer (old celtic Christian prayer for protection), but nothing in there which even hints of a different style to orthodox (small o) Christianity.
There’s a big difference in the style of our expression of Forest Church -drums, chants, fire, meditation times of reflection on the thoughts I’ve written which are apt for the month (ie liturgical / ritual gatherings for worship) and workshops on things like hedgerow medicine, foraging, history of trees, reading clouds for weather forecasting, landscape reading to understand how the land can help us see more about its history (ie “nature” skills so to speak – ones everyone used to have when we were an agrarian society); and the substance of the material (christocentric).
I can see your concerns as you used to be engaged in that path. I wouldn’t want to put a stumbling block in your path. However, stumbling blocks are individual to each person based on their prior experience and response to it, so we continue, aware that for some Forest Church isn’t the right place to be.
Hope that helps Kate.
It was the drawing the circle around yourself in the advent ritual. It is what the Wiccans do when they cast wards. It was also using words like Samhain and Beltane – brings back memories that are not healthy for me to dwell on.
I agree with your last paragraph totally. I think what Paul says about food sacrificed to idols applies. Forest church is not for me – but I can see how it might draw people who are involved in the Craft to Jesus, and that is a good thing.
Kate, I know what you mean about the circle. However, remember that caim prayers (circle prayers) are in the Christian tradition from early Celtic times and Wicca is less than 100 years old, so I think the Christ path has prior claim on that. Body prayers are part of the Christ Tradition – eyes closed, hands together or even arms upraised. We can worship and pray with our whole body – after all, we’re called to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and body, ie holistically.
Beltane and Samhain are ancient festivals which have been appropriated by the pagan community recently. Before then, they were part of the agricultural cycle of the year, so were celebrated as such. Samhain in particular was the end of the old Celtic year if I recall correctly.
Recently the BBC ran an article on how humans feel the need to celebrate the cycle of the sessions globally, and how we seem to miss part of who we are when we don’t do. attach the link below. The Bible is chock full of instructions tothe Jews about their new / full moon celebrations and they solar / lunar calendar festivals. God knows we are to remember that the seasons will continue as long as the earth endures.
I can understand your reticence to use words which have negative connotations for you. But can I suggest you bring that before God to be dealt with completely and for healing in that area so you can use those words again but with new, refreshed meaning for you?
Thanks for your openness and willingness to see beyond the style to the substance of what we’re trying to do, small steps though they are at this early stage in the work.
God bless
The Christ path may have prior claim to that – but not in my head. I am on a path of healing, and I have long since stopped being tempted by the neo pagan way ( as in, 20 years or more long since), But anything that is too similar to the craft gives me the same visceral reaction as putting my hand on a hot stove would – NO, danger, stay AWAY. Please note, I am not saying this is or should be the case for everyone, but it is for me. I agree that we are to love The Lord with body, mind, and spirit, and the rituals, prayers and seasons of the Anglican way do that for me wonderfully well. God speed you on your journey, and I hope that you are able to bring many people who are ensnared in the craft to the wonderful freedom of Christ.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23000963
Nothing wrong with any of that. I have no problem with Alpha. The way that most of our churches work is terribly dysfunctional.
Just a worry, tho: we need to be careful that we are not becoming compromised, and acting without integrity. We can and should make it easier for people to hear the gospel, by allowing them to hear it in their own context. But somewhere along the line they must indeed hear the gospel, or the process is futile, and the risk is that one will merely produce “religious types”. One cannot schmooze people into giving their lives to Christ. Firstly it is not honest, and secondly it is futile: because, by its very nature, that decision has to be overt and definite and concrete, or it is not a decision. And if a man does not make Jesus the Lord of his life, he is not converted and nothing is achieved.
We need to be careful that we do not try to blur what must not be blurred. And indeed those who do so will be left with ashes: a new form of the old scenario of the trendy vicar and the youth group he runs for kids who just put up with the “religion” for the social life.
We must make sure that we do not deceive people. Religious liars are endemic in the liberal churches, and respected by no-one. There is always a risk of inadvertently doing so, in this kind of activity (although the hostility to Christianity is such in our culture that the risk has usually been minimal; anyone who comes to a church thing knows what is at the back of it, and has decided that is OK).
If we are set upon bringing people to Christ, but pretending not to, then we are not being honest with them; and if we are not interested in bringing people to Christ, but pretending to, then we are not being honest with everyone else. Let’s be careful out there!
On the other hand, removing irrelevant barriers of taste and culture so that people can meet Jesus is something we should do better. The old problem of a man who visits an empty church, sits down and is then made to feel “you’re in my seat” is a very real one. Alpha has done well in this area. Much churchy culture is not helpful, and never has been. Let us talk to people where they are.
There is a new Church of England Newspaper article on this; it doesn’t make me feel any less uneasy:
Thought it good to drop a reply myself – I will try and do so with good grammar and spelling (neither of which where helped by a 1970s education – didn’t learn grammar until I studied ancient Greek!)
The Church of England Newspaper have clearly lifted their piece from the Times – the Times contacted me the CEN didn’t and have chopped out a quite a bit – including my full answer to the very reasonable heresy question – in which I said one needed to keep things Trinitarian and focused on Christ – to which I would happily add scripture and christian tradition by the way. The Times article of course is behind their pay wall.
Syncretism is always an issue in cross-cultural mission – we walk a fine line between on the one hand failing to communicate and on the other going totally native and having nothing to offer –
I am not surprised the original article raised concerns both for Christians fearing a sell out and for Pagans who understandably don’t want to be a target market.
happy to answer further questions
– for anyone who wants to explore more of my thinking on mission and evangelism and Paganism New Age etc i have some published work which will offer more than we can do online – Mission-Shaped Evangelism 2010 Canterbury Press – on Amazon or shorter and a lot cheaper Paganism, New Age and Christian Mission Grove Books 2006
Every Blessing
Steve Hollinghurst
Thank you;
I believe that I understand from whence you come.
In the immortal words of Monty Python: “1970’s education? You were lucky!” You have no idea how Sister Bridget tackled education in the fifties…
Should you wish to converse you can email me malachy@saintmarymagdalene.ca
Blessings
Malachy
Hey Malachy – I was at that conference – loved it!
To All:
In Alpha we would never change the message to try to draw in a new audience. Our aim is to present the truth – to lay it out there, if you like, and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.
Having said that, a couple of examples:
The owner of a motorcycle shop came to faith and decided to run an Alpha in his motorcycle clubhouse. He invited all his buds – leather, long hair, tats and all – not your usual Alpha crowd. It became known as the “F-bomb Alpha.” But a number of these bikers came to Christ and began to integrate into local churches. This would never have happened without Alpha.
In another case, a coffee shop has agreed to close their doors, during business hours on a weekday evening, to allow Alpha to be run there. The really exciting thing is that the owners of this coffee shop are Muslims!
Alpha can be run wherever God puts it on people’s hearts to do it.
Thus endeth the commercial.
Sounds good to me. Go to it!
God bless you in all you do (and refrain from doing).
John: Nicky G was as I recall in ‘fine form’.
Perhaps of interest:-
One of our ministers, Brent Elgie, [Full Throttle Ministries] believes that the motorcycling community is a mission field that the traditional church has neglected and in some cases turned their backs on. It doesn’t matter if it is at a Tim Horton’s, at a bike show or other motorcycle event, Brent is aware that God opens many doors and when He does, there is always an opportunity to witness. Brent has been involved in serving God for many years in which he was involved in Christian Education, men’s ministry with Promise Keepers Canada and now wears the patch of Bikers for Christ Motorcycle Ministry. The back patch will often catch someone’s eye and usually leads to someone making a comment on the patch and once they do, it opens the door to witness. “If you don’t think you can have a great time being a Christian, then we need to talk!”, Brent says, “My walk with Christ has been a long one with one adventure after another! God has been so good to me and saved me from having to spend eternity in hell, what more could I do but serve Him with everything I have.” There is only one way to serve such a loving God… Full Throttle!”
Remember, Michael, that that old “Church Militant” stuff has been updated; now it’s “the Church Compliant”, in the world and very much of the world, working to turn the church into an image of this-worldly vaues …”