23 thoughts on “My wife persuaded me not to put a title on this post”
But being too smug about ACoC being a “sinking ship,” I think that it is important to recognize that ANIC churches are “in the same boat.”
Both AcoC and ANIC are losing members fast. (ANIC’s problem may be masked by the fact that its growth is from former ACoC churches). But if we take a look at what happens to churches once they are part of ANIC, they generally continue the trend of decline in attendance that we see in ACoC.
Based on information provided on ANIC websites, I looked at the change in attendance rates of ANIC churches from Oct 2011 to Jan 2013 (a 15 month period). I only used numbers from churches who provided numbers in 2011. What I found was that in the 15 months, those churches lost a total of 158 people! 24 churches had attendance decline, 13 grew and 3 stayed the same. (I’ve posted the numbers below).
Both ANIC and ACoC need to prayerfully consider how we are sharing the Gospel and how relevant we are to those within the church and in broader society. At the current rate, both churches will be obselete within a generation so it is rather urgent that BOTH churches humbly seek God’s guidance and wisdom….
Stats: Name of church, change in numbers since 2011, % change since 2011
ANIC Good Shepherd Richmond, -15, -42%
ANIC Good Shepherd Vancouver, 14, 6%
Christ Church…Mill Bay, -5, -42%
Christ Church Oceasnside, -40, -46%
Church of Ascension- Langley, 7, 20%
Church of Resurrection-Hope, 0,0%
Crossroads – Saanichton, -7, -15%
Holy Cross-Abbotsford, -1,-4%
St John’s-Vancouver, 0,0%
St John’s Richmond, 20, 25%
St John’s Surrey, -24,-48%
St Matthias & St Luke, -45,-36%
Saint Matthew- Abbotsford, 20, 7%
The Open Gate, -17,-16%
Grace – Calgary 20, 20%
Living Water – Athabasca, -1, -13%
Church of Reedemer –Dauphin, 5, 28%
Church of Resurrection – Brandon, -5, -14%
St Bede’s-Konosota, 9, 36%
Blackburn, 1, 5%
Celebratin – Barrie, -18, -23%
Christ the King – Toronto, 7, 35%
Church of Epiphany – Hamiliton, -10,-33%
Good Shepherd – St Catharines, -19,-20%
Messiah – Norwich, 2, 15%
Faith Anglican, -13,-33%
Living Hope – Scarborough, 10, 20%
New Life – Sturgeon Falls, 0, 0%
St Aidan’s – Windsor, -12, -11%
St Chad’s – Toronto, 1, 4%
St Luke’s Pemborke, 11, 9%
St Paul Stoney Creek -80, -100% (no numbers in 2013)
St Peter and St Paul Ottawa, 9, 4%
Emmaus Westmount, -7,-7%
St Timothy Montreal, -1, -1%
Christ the King Quisapamsis, -2,-20%
Christ the Redeemer Moncton, -36,100% (no number in 2013)
St Stephen’s St John’s, -5,-11%
Holy Trinity Marlborough, -97, -63%
No secret at all. I believe that each diocese publishes the data online in their circulars. Here is the link for the Edmonton circular. (The stats are at the end).
The churches that are really packing them in are those with a strong eschatological slant. For some reason “The end is coming” is a message that will make your attendance roll grow. Take the fear out of the message, and membership dwindles.
Actually the churches that are packing them are the ones who hold fast to the Gospel as once given to the saints, not bending in compromise to the winds of culture, but are willing change the style, or packaging, to appeal to a contemporary audience.
I visit a lot of churches and I see all sorts of, mostly rural but some urban, Anglican churches with 20 parishioners on a Sunday, mostly gray hair, singing the same old dreary hymns (I’m talking of style here, not theological content), not wanting to change anything, but to hold on to the traditions of style they have always kept.
I also know churches (I attend one Sunday evenings) who have weekend attendance in the thousands, full of enthusiastic young people, rocking worship music and solid Gospel preaching.
Our (unfortunately former) church (EdmontonAnglican can relate) did not stick in that rut. They introduced contemporary worship bands, took away the altar rail and even changed the order of service to accommodate parents and Sunday School teachers. They were full every Sunday.
As I have sat in one of these small, dying churches, I would be asking myself,
“If this were my first time here, would I really want to come back?” or
“That was great! I’m looking forward to next Sunday.” or,
“Is this a church I’d like to bring a friend to?”
I can tell you, the answer is usually, sadly, “No.”
Well, in Québec, the self-ordained pastor-led Evangelical “we are in the end times” churches are doing spectacularly well. Catholic Church, not that well. ACC, very badly.
Really hard to sing to some of that “rocking worship music,” You may as well just sit down and listen to it. I know of people who have stopped going to some of the churches that have contemporary worship services simply because of the fact they end up just having to stand and listen to the bands and singers instead of being able to sing along. I am not talking about senior citizens either.
The better idea, I think, is to have a mix of contemporary and classic. People can actually sing the older hymns. And they want to.
I don’t have grey hair yet, and I have to say that the “rocking worship music” has been an enormous turn-off to me forever and ever, Amen, no matter what denomination stoops to using it. To me, it is a reflection of low pop culture. Classical Sacred Music, anyone? Musical appreciation is not just a matter of age.
I go for country spirituals myself, but I’m not too fussy. Good job too, as the music program at Christ Church Cathedral in Montréal is — though superb — rather serious.
I agree about the old hymns, but too often they are played in such a dreary fashion. They can be played quite nicely on more contemporary instruments (keyboards, guitars, bass, drums), and yes, mixed with contemporary songs. And perhaps instead of “rocking” I should have used the term, “more contemporary.” (although I love ‘rocking’ too, and I’m a senior.)
About the altar rail, I’m just concerned that visitors unfamiliar with the Anglican service might find kneeling at the front for Communion awkward. There are fewer and fewer “cradle” Anglicans. If our churches are to grow they must bring in new people from “outside,” and allow them to feel comfortable (other than the conviction of the Gospel) being there.
They can be played quite nicely on an organ, too, if the organist understands the music being played and doesn’t play everything at dirge pace. I thing you might be comparing mediocre organists to skilled praise band musicians.
In spite of all our differences in theologies and practices, it is still a miracle that people in over 41,000 denominations throughout the whole world continue to worship the triune God and share the Gospel with others in words and in deeds.
The focus on music and presentation concerns me. If a person turns out to worship in a church primarily because of the musical style, what does that really say for the strength of conviction of the individual?
I think the focus is completely on the wrong things – and unfortunately its a focus shared by conservatives and progressives alike. It’s a focus on numbers and attendance. Yet that’s almost medieval thinking, from a time when virtually everybody went to church. The standard of comparison – the “normal” – seems to be the size of congregations 50 years ago, before the great decline.
Numbers become important when churches look empty because they were built in the past to accommodate much larger congregations. Numbers become important when churches need to raise enough money to maintain said church buildings. But numbers are not important from a purely gospel perspective.
In fact, the gospel gives no guarantee of perpetual growth and the gospel certainly does not say, “Measure your success against 1960’s attendance figures”. The gospel does not dwell on the number of people attending church at all, except perhaps for the one reference in Hebrews about not forsaking worshiping together. This is understandable since earliest Christians were often on the hop; worshiping literally underground in the catacombs; and where danger was always imminent. You do not generally think, “We’re on the small side; we need to grow our church” when your baby was perforated by a Roman spear for grotesque sport last week, and next week you might end up exploring a lion’s digestive tract.
In their persecution, I feel they understood what we have forgotten. God does not measure things the way we human beings do. If the focus was on growing our love; our faith; our scriptural understanding; of carefully and prayerfully instructing a handful of faithful, sobre-minded young pastors; and expanding our evangelical zeal – this would be more in keeping with the gospel and provide a better witness to the unbelieving world.
God will not allow his church to disappear (the gospel will be proclaimed in all countries), but he may not choose to preserve it in the form (and size) that we expect. This is not to distress us if we genuinely believe that God is sovereign over all things. We need to be adaptable to the circumstances of his providing, and lift our eyes from naval-gazing on how to pack people into a church. If God can raise up children to Abraham from the stones, then he can fill a church to the rafters with Canadians.
I think we need to get used to being small (a hard ask if one remembers being big), and also get used to the new circumstances of evangelism in the 21st century.
I worship at a Church of Jesus Christ! (aka St Hilda’s Oakville) which btw are moving into a larger space in June after having been released of any further physical relationship with ACoC one year ago.(except for the occasional lawsuit they seem strangely attached to and intent on serving former parishes & individuals).
But being too smug about ACoC being a “sinking ship,” I think that it is important to recognize that ANIC churches are “in the same boat.”
Both AcoC and ANIC are losing members fast. (ANIC’s problem may be masked by the fact that its growth is from former ACoC churches). But if we take a look at what happens to churches once they are part of ANIC, they generally continue the trend of decline in attendance that we see in ACoC.
Based on information provided on ANIC websites, I looked at the change in attendance rates of ANIC churches from Oct 2011 to Jan 2013 (a 15 month period). I only used numbers from churches who provided numbers in 2011. What I found was that in the 15 months, those churches lost a total of 158 people! 24 churches had attendance decline, 13 grew and 3 stayed the same. (I’ve posted the numbers below).
Both ANIC and ACoC need to prayerfully consider how we are sharing the Gospel and how relevant we are to those within the church and in broader society. At the current rate, both churches will be obselete within a generation so it is rather urgent that BOTH churches humbly seek God’s guidance and wisdom….
Stats: Name of church, change in numbers since 2011, % change since 2011
ANIC Good Shepherd Richmond, -15, -42%
ANIC Good Shepherd Vancouver, 14, 6%
Christ Church…Mill Bay, -5, -42%
Christ Church Oceasnside, -40, -46%
Church of Ascension- Langley, 7, 20%
Church of Resurrection-Hope, 0,0%
Crossroads – Saanichton, -7, -15%
Holy Cross-Abbotsford, -1,-4%
St John’s-Vancouver, 0,0%
St John’s Richmond, 20, 25%
St John’s Surrey, -24,-48%
St Matthias & St Luke, -45,-36%
Saint Matthew- Abbotsford, 20, 7%
The Open Gate, -17,-16%
Grace – Calgary 20, 20%
Living Water – Athabasca, -1, -13%
Church of Reedemer –Dauphin, 5, 28%
Church of Resurrection – Brandon, -5, -14%
St Bede’s-Konosota, 9, 36%
Blackburn, 1, 5%
Celebratin – Barrie, -18, -23%
Christ the King – Toronto, 7, 35%
Church of Epiphany – Hamiliton, -10,-33%
Good Shepherd – St Catharines, -19,-20%
Messiah – Norwich, 2, 15%
Faith Anglican, -13,-33%
Living Hope – Scarborough, 10, 20%
New Life – Sturgeon Falls, 0, 0%
St Aidan’s – Windsor, -12, -11%
St Chad’s – Toronto, 1, 4%
St Luke’s Pemborke, 11, 9%
St Paul Stoney Creek -80, -100% (no numbers in 2013)
St Peter and St Paul Ottawa, 9, 4%
Emmaus Westmount, -7,-7%
St Timothy Montreal, -1, -1%
Christ the King Quisapamsis, -2,-20%
Christ the Redeemer Moncton, -36,100% (no number in 2013)
St Stephen’s St John’s, -5,-11%
Holy Trinity Marlborough, -97, -63%
Interesting.
I was at St. Peter and St. Paul’s on Sunday and it was packed. They will have to add a second Sunday service soon.
Where are the attendance figures for the ACoC parishes??
Or are they a well kept secret.
No secret at all. I believe that each diocese publishes the data online in their circulars. Here is the link for the Edmonton circular. (The stats are at the end).
http://edmonton.anglican.org/pdf/pdf/63rd%20Synod/63rd%20Synod%20Circular_final.pdf
Not all. New Westminster does not.
The churches that are really packing them in are those with a strong eschatological slant. For some reason “The end is coming” is a message that will make your attendance roll grow. Take the fear out of the message, and membership dwindles.
Actually the churches that are packing them are the ones who hold fast to the Gospel as once given to the saints, not bending in compromise to the winds of culture, but are willing change the style, or packaging, to appeal to a contemporary audience.
I visit a lot of churches and I see all sorts of, mostly rural but some urban, Anglican churches with 20 parishioners on a Sunday, mostly gray hair, singing the same old dreary hymns (I’m talking of style here, not theological content), not wanting to change anything, but to hold on to the traditions of style they have always kept.
I also know churches (I attend one Sunday evenings) who have weekend attendance in the thousands, full of enthusiastic young people, rocking worship music and solid Gospel preaching.
Our (unfortunately former) church (EdmontonAnglican can relate) did not stick in that rut. They introduced contemporary worship bands, took away the altar rail and even changed the order of service to accommodate parents and Sunday School teachers. They were full every Sunday.
As I have sat in one of these small, dying churches, I would be asking myself,
“If this were my first time here, would I really want to come back?” or
“That was great! I’m looking forward to next Sunday.” or,
“Is this a church I’d like to bring a friend to?”
I can tell you, the answer is usually, sadly, “No.”
Well, in Québec, the self-ordained pastor-led Evangelical “we are in the end times” churches are doing spectacularly well. Catholic Church, not that well. ACC, very badly.
Really hard to sing to some of that “rocking worship music,” You may as well just sit down and listen to it. I know of people who have stopped going to some of the churches that have contemporary worship services simply because of the fact they end up just having to stand and listen to the bands and singers instead of being able to sing along. I am not talking about senior citizens either.
The better idea, I think, is to have a mix of contemporary and classic. People can actually sing the older hymns. And they want to.
I don’t have grey hair yet, and I have to say that the “rocking worship music” has been an enormous turn-off to me forever and ever, Amen, no matter what denomination stoops to using it. To me, it is a reflection of low pop culture. Classical Sacred Music, anyone? Musical appreciation is not just a matter of age.
I go for country spirituals myself, but I’m not too fussy. Good job too, as the music program at Christ Church Cathedral in Montréal is — though superb — rather serious.
Absolutely, the contemporary is too much with us already.
Anonymuse,I think that is a matter of the worship leader not understanding the difference between playing a gig and leading other people in singing.
I love the altar rail. 🙁
We are in accord on altar rails, Vincent.
I agree about the old hymns, but too often they are played in such a dreary fashion. They can be played quite nicely on more contemporary instruments (keyboards, guitars, bass, drums), and yes, mixed with contemporary songs. And perhaps instead of “rocking” I should have used the term, “more contemporary.” (although I love ‘rocking’ too, and I’m a senior.)
About the altar rail, I’m just concerned that visitors unfamiliar with the Anglican service might find kneeling at the front for Communion awkward. There are fewer and fewer “cradle” Anglicans. If our churches are to grow they must bring in new people from “outside,” and allow them to feel comfortable (other than the conviction of the Gospel) being there.
They can be played quite nicely on an organ, too, if the organist understands the music being played and doesn’t play everything at dirge pace. I thing you might be comparing mediocre organists to skilled praise band musicians.
Unfamiliarity is exactly what needs emphasis.
In spite of all our differences in theologies and practices, it is still a miracle that people in over 41,000 denominations throughout the whole world continue to worship the triune God and share the Gospel with others in words and in deeds.
The focus on music and presentation concerns me. If a person turns out to worship in a church primarily because of the musical style, what does that really say for the strength of conviction of the individual?
I think the focus is completely on the wrong things – and unfortunately its a focus shared by conservatives and progressives alike. It’s a focus on numbers and attendance. Yet that’s almost medieval thinking, from a time when virtually everybody went to church. The standard of comparison – the “normal” – seems to be the size of congregations 50 years ago, before the great decline.
Numbers become important when churches look empty because they were built in the past to accommodate much larger congregations. Numbers become important when churches need to raise enough money to maintain said church buildings. But numbers are not important from a purely gospel perspective.
In fact, the gospel gives no guarantee of perpetual growth and the gospel certainly does not say, “Measure your success against 1960’s attendance figures”. The gospel does not dwell on the number of people attending church at all, except perhaps for the one reference in Hebrews about not forsaking worshiping together. This is understandable since earliest Christians were often on the hop; worshiping literally underground in the catacombs; and where danger was always imminent. You do not generally think, “We’re on the small side; we need to grow our church” when your baby was perforated by a Roman spear for grotesque sport last week, and next week you might end up exploring a lion’s digestive tract.
In their persecution, I feel they understood what we have forgotten. God does not measure things the way we human beings do. If the focus was on growing our love; our faith; our scriptural understanding; of carefully and prayerfully instructing a handful of faithful, sobre-minded young pastors; and expanding our evangelical zeal – this would be more in keeping with the gospel and provide a better witness to the unbelieving world.
God will not allow his church to disappear (the gospel will be proclaimed in all countries), but he may not choose to preserve it in the form (and size) that we expect. This is not to distress us if we genuinely believe that God is sovereign over all things. We need to be adaptable to the circumstances of his providing, and lift our eyes from naval-gazing on how to pack people into a church. If God can raise up children to Abraham from the stones, then he can fill a church to the rafters with Canadians.
I think we need to get used to being small (a hard ask if one remembers being big), and also get used to the new circumstances of evangelism in the 21st century.
Thanks for raising these points.
I worship at a Church of Jesus Christ! (aka St Hilda’s Oakville) which btw are moving into a larger space in June after having been released of any further physical relationship with ACoC one year ago.(except for the occasional lawsuit they seem strangely attached to and intent on serving former parishes & individuals).