From here:
Good riddance to Dr Williams.
So the Archbishop of Canterbury, has finally announced his resignation. I believe the operative word is “Hallelujah”. I have long felt that the incumbent of this illustrious office has been what we nowadays call a “waste of space”. An airy-fairy academic out of touch with the feelings of common folk and a spouter of politically correct twaddle, a man of zero leadership qualities at a time when we require strong direction from the head of this country’s official religious establishment. Under Dr Rowan Williams’ watch the British have been in danger of utterly devaluing their ancient Judaeo-Christian tradition, which would have been tragic for both the religious and secular alike.
Poor Rowan Williams: he tried to please everyone – or, perhaps more accurately, tried to upset no-one, and, in doing so, earned almost universal opprobrium. Those who said kind things about his efforts, did so because they are his friends and even they struggled to find something good to say about Dr. Williams’ ten year quest to find unity through incoherent indaba babbling.
From a Canadian perspective, not only did he not protest at the deposing of one of the world’s most respected evangelical theologians, Dr. J. I. Packer, but his refusal to grant even a sliver of recognition to ACNA and ANiC effectively scuttled any attempt by ANiC parishioners to hang on to their buildings. The legal argument that crushed ANiC’s chances went along these lines:
- Anglican church buildings are held in trust for Anglicans to use as places of worship.
- The Anglican Church of Canada has strayed from being Anglican as defined by the Solemn Declaration of 1893.
- ANiC members hold to the Anglicanism of the Solemn Declaration and, therefore, are the true Anglicans for which the buildings are intended.
Counter argument:
- Anglican theology is not static.
- The Anglican Church of Canada is the only recognised Anglican organisation in Canada – recognised by Lambeth and the Archbishop of Canterbury, that is.
- The Anglican Church of Canada must, therefore, define what is “Anglican”.
- The Anglican Church of Canada gets the buildings because the buildings are for the use of Anglicans.
Admittedly, those of us in ANiC, including the lawyers – especially the lawyers, perhaps – who thought it might have gone otherwise exhibited a superficially charming other-world naïvety, but, ultimately, it was Rowan Williams who delivered the coup de grâce to any possibility of success.
Good riddance.
We also felt the law would judge in favour of what was moral and fair – that is that the people who had paid for and maintained the buildings were more entitled to them than those who had not. It turns out that what is legal is not what is right or moral in this case. It ruled in favour of legalized theft.
You guys just don’t get it. Neither you or I own the buildings, we merely tend them in trust for temporal needs and the needs of those who will come after us. ANiC has violated that trust or social contract if you wish that exists within the church. You have also violated the ecclesiology of the church.
You cannot get up and walk away from “the” recognized institution and presume to have any authority to take the buildings with you.
What ANiC represents is a fringe. I dissident rump that is unhappy that its views are not embraced as “the” correct views. Like little children you whine and complain in the hope that someone will listen. We’ve given up listening and so has Canterbury. You will remain a rump and you will atrophy as you confront those issues head on (women’s ordination and perhaps even married clergy, use of the BCP versus BAS, etc.) that you sought to avoid. When enough women realize that your church is as hostile to gays as it is to women’s leadership, then you’ll be in real trouble.
Your utter contempt for the Archbishop, is, I suspect, in large part because Canterbury won’t recognize ANiC. And why should it? The rump has no legitimacy and is an afront to the authority of Canterbury. Go on and fume. Fewer of us are taking notice anymore.
In checking the ANiC website I see it now has 55 Parishes in 8 of Canada’s Provinces, plus another 5 Parishes in 2 States. Considering that ANiC stated less than 10 years ago with only about a dozen “dissident rump” congregations this seems rather impressive.
Can you tell me by how much the ACoC has grown over the same time?
If these trends continue, and there is no sign of them changing or slowing down even, it will be only a matter of time until it is the ANiC that will be the main body of Anglicanism in Canada and the ACoC will be the “dissident rump”.
I wonder. When that day comes, will the ANiC than be able to sew the ACoC for all of the remaining ACoC buildings, as the ANiC will than be able to legitimatley claim to be the “the only recognised Anglican organisation in Canada” and “the buildings are for the use of Anglicans”?
We’ll be too busy planting churches to be bothered!
The reason there are fewer of you taking notice is because there are fewer of you day by day.
The rest of us wind up with our Johnny Cash moments, Sunday Morning Going Down. “The beer I had for breakfast didn’t seem to hurt, So I popped the cap on another one and had it for desert”.
We might listen to some sedate radio program, or we’ve drifted off to a “fire-and-brimstone lite” Crystal Cathedral, or we sneak into a Roman church and hide in the back pews, occasionally. Maybe we worship Manchester United or the Cowboys.
The liberation theology, the order that we must recognise the superiority of homosexuals, this strange, strange concern with homosexuality and proving that women are equal….nay! more equal than men, and lesbian women are more valuable to Yahweh than lesbian men….it is madness.
Almighty Father, Who desireth not the Death of a sinner but rather that he might turn from his wickedness and live…..
Saints in Heaven Intervene.
El Gringo Viejo
Eph 3:20 [#2],
Hey, hang on a minute. I was witty, articulate and incisive.
You are the one who is fuming.
He’s really threatened by us, isn’t he?
Canturbury isn’t relevant anymore. I’m content to be in communion with the two thirds world Anglicans who are still Christians.
Kate,
If Canterbury is irrelevent then why does ANiC earnestly clamour for its recognition? Just asking.
I just meant Canterbury is irrelevant to me. I don’t presume to speak for ANiC.
AMP,
Dream on. It is idle speculation to presume ANiC will be the main body of Anglicanism. You make me laugh. You flatter yourself. Just wait, at some point women within ANiC will tire of the rhetoric that they should be denied leadership in their church. Your xenophodic tendencies will cause you to implode.
Hello Eph,
You seem to be getting a bit defensive. Also, you did not answer the question. So I ask it again…
Can you tell me by how much the ACoC has grown over the same time (i.e. past ten years)?
You also seem to be trying to drive a wedge about some sort of a woman’s issue. If you are talking about woman ordination, than this will be a hurdle to overcome. To suggest that Churches that do not have woman ordination are self destructive is frankly unfounded. The two largest Christian denominations (Roman Catholic and Easter Orthadox) won’t even consider it, and globally these two are still very strong. Seems ironic that most of the denominations that have adopted woman ordination are in decline.
If you are suggesting that even with no woman ordination that women in general will be denied leadership roles within the Church, than I think you are ignoring all of the important functions performed by the laity. From what I have observed during my own life I would say that women laity have been one of the greatest parts of the Church, the Anglican Church Women (ACW) being a fine example.
AMP,
Growth in the ACC is declining in most places, static in others and in rare instances, increasing. Parishes like mine are growing because we have awesome clerical leadership, a tremendous amount of volunteer support, lots of small group ministry, relevant preaching (that isn’t watered down riff raff), terrific Sunday school programming, a dedicated volunteer driven music ministry and worship band, and people can easily make the connection that their association and giving to the church makes a difference in the community, transforms their relationship with Christ and is mission oriented.
In a nutshell, to borrow from Harold Percy, we are growing because we concentrate on disciplemaking. Regretably, it is the only ACC church in my area that I would attend (my children actually beg to go to church on Sunday). This is a sad statement about most Anglican churches – and thanks for raising it. I am not too vain to admit that most church worship in the ACC is boring, unmoving, stale, outdated and irrelevant. Most parish leadership is old, fixated on a generations old vision of what the church should be, unwilling to change or try new things, fearful and tapped out.
Yeah, its not a great recipe for growth and change.
What he is suggesting is that at some point ANiC will cease ordaining women, which he has zero evidence for. He seems to believe that if he repeats it often enough it will become true. ANiC ordains women to deacon and presbyter (but not bishop – this decision was in order to facilitate the formation of ACNA. Some of the groups that form ACNA don’t ordain women, and would not have joined if there was a possibility of a woman being part of the college of bishops). I was at the first ANiC conference. I heard Bishop Harvey say that ‘women would not be second class citizens in ANiC’. Each diocese in ACNA is free to follow its own collective conscience on whether or not it is possible to ordain women.
If you want to continue in your little fantasy world where WO leads ANiC to fall apart, be my guest. But that’s all it is – a fantasy.
There are a billion or so worshiping across the Tiber and avoiding WO and all the same sex agenda has not done much to reduce their popularity.
Why?
(Roman Catholics Church) defines its mission as spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, administering its sacraments and exercising charity.
KISS, Ocham and all that!
Eph
Go preach to the rest of your moribund diocese. They need help. We don’t.
Jim,
Thanks for the slap in the face. But then I’ve come to expect it from ANiC.
At least I’m honest enough to call a spade a spade.
My diocese is not moribund. There are awesome centres of excellence. Let me name twenty: St. John, Peterborough; St. John, Ida; St. Mark, Port Hope; St. John Port Hope, St. Peter, Cobourg; Christ Church, Oshawa; St. John, Whitby; St. Thomas, Brooklin, St. Martin, Dunbarton; St. Paul on-the-hill, Pickering; St. Paul, Uxbridge; St. Dunstan, Scarborough; St. John, Delhi, St. Timothy, Agincourt, St. Luke, East York; Redeemer, Bloor Street; St. Paul, Bloor Street; Resurrection; Little Trinity, St. Mary Magdalene; St. Martin in-the-Fields; St. John, West Toronto; St, Peter, Erindale; Christ Church, Brampton… of I see I am already up to 24.
Give your head a shake mister. If you read the pages of “The Anglican” you will read stories of growth, promise and discipleship.
Moribund… I think not.
BTW Jim,
It is ANiC that has chosen to walk alone. To break from the family – to divorce itself. Don’t become so sanctimonious as to believe that somehow you are the best practice to be emulated. If you are anything like the Anglican Catholic Church… I’d give you fifteen.
Hello Eph,
Have you checked out the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada lately. Since the announcement of the anglicanorum coetibus this group has been extremely excited. Having been rejected by Canterbury they have now been accepted by Rome, and are moving forward with great enthusiasm. They now consist of thirty Parishes in nine of Canada’s Provinces. The ACCoC is now about 35 years old, and still going. With the recent anglicanorum coetibus they appear to be reinvigorated and growing.
Your perspective of the ANiC being the breakaway group is only that, your perspective. From my perspective it is the ACoC that has broken away from the rest of the Worldwide Anglican Communion. And the ANiC has most certainly not decided to “walk alone” as it has made it abundantly obvious that it wants to be included in the WAC. Shame on the ACoC for its attempts to prevent the ANiC from being accepted into the WAC.
I have no interest in going back to the RC church. I spent years flogging issues like woman’s ordination, celibacy, birth control, divorce, infallibility, Mary worship, etc within the Rc church to no avail. The Anglican Church reconciles most closely the concerns I have. And the vitriole with which ANiC has toward gay people does not incline me to look there.
“…vitriole with which ANiC has toward gay people…”
So tipical. Anyone who has the courage to speak the truth, that being that homosexual behaviour is a sin, is spoken of in the most hateful of ways. Tell me, if I were to say to an alcoholic that their addiction is killing them, would you accuse me of treating alcoholics with “vitriole”?
Eph. You were the one who first mentioned the ACCoC, and tried to use it as some sort of example of a dying group. As much as you do not agree with them, the fact is that they are still here.
What vitriole? I’ve seen some anger towards revisionists, but nothing towards gay people per se. We understand that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that we all have to repent every day and turn to Him for forgiveness. We aren’t the ones who have made a big deal about sex – we are the ones who are calling the church back to belief that the Bible is God’s word written.
Kate,
Does that mean an ANiC parish would be comfortable with a monogamous homosexual couple attending their worship services?
If it makes you feel better to believe that, go right ahead. I will note though, that constantly repeating something doesn’t make it true -and your very tenacity and volume makes me wonder if you really believe it yourself.
Since on the one hand, you say that your church is the only Anglican church in your area you’d take your kids to, and on the other list all those supposedly growing churches…..
There is growth and stagnation. If we prune the deadwood we could reinvest where the energy is.
Eph
Do you actually read what you write?
You have conceded that the ACoC is dying off (moribund). Having taken a close careful look around the country, I believe that it’s fair to say that the only appreciable growth in the ACoC is in the Community Centre’s that they are turning their closed churches into.
You have conceded that the only ACoC church in your area that you would trust your children to is your own. I have absolute confidence that my children would receive solid biblical teaching in ANY ANiC parish.
If you cared about ACoC, you would be spending all of your time trying to promulgate your own parish values (preach to your diocese).
FYI: I’m a retired Steelworker. If I slapped you in the face, you’d know it.
Jim,
I did not contend at all that the ACC is dying off. I suggested that pruning is necessary to strengthen the whole. The only reason I choose to go to the church I do is because the breadth of their ministry excites me and my family.
BCP services are deadly – the only reason we keep them is to pacify those who long for the church of the 40’s and 50’s. And most choral services are so heavy on the organ that you can’t hear the voices of the choir. Understand that I did not grow up in the ACC tradition so I have no appreciation for what engages traditionalists. Their fixation with organ music mistifies me. I prefer a more informal celebration with worship band and overheads.
The five churches I drive by to get to my own might be adequate to some, but not me. It is simply a matter of preference.
Eph: I can’t reply above, for some reason. Why do you ask the question? My parish would be comfortable with anybody attending our worship services. That doesn’t mean that we change what we teach to make everyone feel comfortable, though. If the pastor never makes people feel uncomfortable then he or she isn’t doing the job of preaching the word properly.